sound quality: live vs. logic

[AdamJay]

edited...
please see the logic vs. live test a few posts down.

[dj metronome]

had 3 labels after it! One guy noticed the mix lacked 'clarity' though.



Proper use of eq's to avoid masking+proper use of compression+proper use of limiting=clarity If these concepts are elusive to you then go to school

[randyh]

Thanks AdamJay for posting actual files even though they're not an A/B shootout of the same recording. If I were a moderator here I'd delete every thread that started on this topic unless the person posted files from the program they were claiming sounded "better" and Live. And then I'd still probably delete them anyway

Unfortunately it's rare that anyone actually goes to the lengths it would take to back up their claims. The one time I saw someone do a scientific shootout of the different sound of multitrack programs, the difference was on the order of -120-130db. That's way below the threshold of pretty much every sound system known to man, not to mention our ears and most listening environments.

-r

[AdamJay]

i think it all comes down to this:
different does not = better or worse.
it simply means different.

you either like the way it sounds or you don't. We all have our own opinions on which applications sound better than others. And for the most part we will use the application that sounds the best to us (combined with provides the best workflow, options, etc.) If you are using a tool that you feel has inferior sound than another tool but you enjoy using that tool more instead, well then you are going to have to make the compromise and possibly go the extra mile to make tool A sound as good as possible - even sound as good as you perceive tool B to sound.

I've said that i think Logic and other traditional DAWs sound sterile.
I realize there are things i can do to make them sound more the way i want, to make them sound less sterile and more "fat". But since i prefer the workflow of Live, i choose not to use those tools anyway. If i wanted to make Live sound MORE sterile, i could just as easily do that as well (rewire anyone?)

the problem is this has all been established before in several other threads on the same subject before.

[randyh]

what i don't understand is we've had 10 or 12 threads on this subject, so why does it keep getting re-hashed? why aren't old threads resurrected instead?

notice about the 4th post down, it was acknowledged. and, why is it that elitest attitude sporting resident message board types always feel the need to broadcast and point fingers at newer members for redundancy or validity about posting content? last i checked this was a public forum, and i was encouraged as a live user to post my questions and concerns here.

It's common "Internet manners" that you do a quick search for the answer to your question before you start a new thread on something. I'll be the first to admit that the search function hear kinda sucks, but it's clear that you went back and found lots of info probably quite easily. I think what AdamJay said a valid point and you'd probably say the reverse if you'd seen it 1000 times like the rest of us.

<rant>
If the S/N ratio of a forum gets too low (er high, whatever) the usefulness of it goes down the drain. Go over to kvraudio and search for "Best Compressor". It gets SO OLD reading the same things over and over and over and over. I'm so tired of every forum on the web going from being a useful resource to a useless one.
</rant>

-r

[doubletakeman]

Wow.. i'm surprised no one has done an A/B test of this before.

If I get a chance, i'll do it with Nuendo and Ableton..

[dj metronome]

If I get a chance, i'll do it with Nuendo and Ableton..[/quote]



If you do something like this I think everything should be identical from pre and post production. E.g.-the only deference would be the master buss outputs from the two systems

[supster]

probably around 100 people have debated this on here, and not a single one has posted a valid A/B test to back up thier gripes

*yawn*

[AdamJay]

i'll try to do an A/B vs. Logic Express 7 (if it will stop crashing)
nothing fancy, i'll just throw in some Tacklebox loops, mix them together and we'll have a listen to the final output.

[AdamJay]

here we go guys
i put a few stereo loops from a generic sample CD into DSP quattro, looped them several times so we have a continuous loop going here..

then i put them in Live with no fx, and i made sure that warping was turned off etc.
all channels set to 0dB, and the master channel set to -5dB
I repeated the same process exactly in Logic Express 7.0.1
So these are just a few audio files playing back. No warping no fx, no nothing.

please right click and download so that my bandwidth isn't totally slaughtered

rendered from Live 4.1.1 here is the result:
http://www.djadamjay.com/files/LiveRendered.aif

bounced from Logic Express 7.0.1 here is the result:
http://www.djadamjay.com/files/LogicBounced.aif

I'll reserve divulging what i'm personally hearing between these 2 files, and let you guys check it out and weigh in on which application you think is sounding better or worse, or if you even think it sounds different at all.

[ayanami]

what i don't understand is we've had 10 or 12 threads on this subject, so why does it keep getting re-hashed? why aren't old threads resurrected instead?

notice about the 4th post down, it was acknowledged. and, why is it that elitest attitude sporting resident message board types always feel the need to broadcast and point fingers at newer members for redundancy or validity about posting content? last i checked this was a public forum, and i was encouraged as a live user to post my questions and concerns here.

It's common "Internet manners" that you do a quick search for the answer to your question before you start a new thread on something. I'll be the first to admit that the search function hear kinda sucks, but it's clear that you went back and found lots of info probably quite easily. I think what AdamJay said a valid point and you'd probably say the reverse if you'd seen it 1000 times like the rest of us.

actually i keyword searched "sound engine" and "sound quality" and got well over 83 some odd pages returned. yes, i fished through the first 15 or so pages and wasn't getting anything close (sound and/or quality keywords pretty much returns every thread on this board, seriously), thats when i posted my original post.

then i got the bright idea to search all posts by user 'robert henke', and found exactly what i was looking for 10 x's over. hence, the second post.


adamjay, i like your ableton track. quite nice, reminds me a bit of the advent.

all, looking forward to the A/B tests.

[AdamJay]

actually i keyword searched "sound engine" and "sound quality" and got well over 83 some odd pages returned. yes, i fished through the first 15 or so pages and wasn't getting anything close (sound and/or quality keywords pretty much returns every thread on this board, seriously), thats when i posted my original post.

ah you just gotta tell the search engine specifically what you are looking for.

well for future reference, do this....
type in the search
"logic AND live AND sound AND quality"
this demands that all terms must be in the results, not just 1 or 2...

do that and you should get about 46-50 results.
the first page of which all deal with this topic.

[Deadbeat]

Okay I've listened to it in headphones, on the monitors and on the hi fi and I can't hear any difference here at all.

my 2 cents...

[Lightbringerrr]

Not to keep the rehash alive, but reading the posts on this thread made me think of this simple truth:

Never doubt the importance of the analog quotient, in particular your Pre's! I don't know what you're using to send your signals in with, but I'm beginning to believe that the HD format needs a particular kind of preamp to make/keep the sound tight.

I'm using M Audio and I really, really love the clarity of it. I've had much better luck patching my analog tube stuff through the seperate sends in the M Audio than trying to load the front end with that kind of gear. I've been trying Live and Sonar 4 by recording my old drum machine in midi and audio simultaneously, and I could descern no real diffrence between them sound quality-wise in the audio playback.
If thier mics are as good as thier pre's, I can't wait to try them out!

I'm new by the way, so 'Hi' everyone!

[MrYellow]

I think it's the frequency response.

I've only just woke up..... fresh ears.....

Listened on small monitors and large monitors....

At first, there was something about the kick that sounded ever so slightly
different..... The Logic version seems to have more room around it, like it
was missing something, maybe noise.... The more I listened the more I
thought the logic had more punch, but why.... the Live version has
something which isn't in the Logic version, a sound that's been pushed out
of the way by a more punchy bass. Then just listening to the levels it
started to come to me. In Logic the bass is louder. This pushes out a mids
sound in the Live version and makes the kick sound "better" (actually I
didn't find it better at all, punchy, but lacking the whole more true sound
that Live was giving)..... but has nothing to do with sound quality.

Then.....

I looked at the meters......
The logic version appears higher in the low frequencies.

I bet that if you take Live, boost it 2-3db at 100Hz you'll have an exact
match for Logic.

I used to work with a great speaker designer. He could make cross-over
networks that would have the speakers perfectly (+/- 1db) flat frequency
response...... Did he sell them? Nope..... People liked them much better
when he added a few db of high frequencies.... for sparkle..... I'm
guessing it's the same thing with Logic.... They've added a few db of
100Hz to aim for a punchy kick sound.

As Henke said "Monoboy only plays in mono, and he still can`t hear the
difference between a floating point value of +1.34235343 ( example ) in
Live and in Cubase or Solar. "

-Ben