sound quality: live vs. logic

[raapie]

no need for summing tests: phase canceling on channels. better than this is not possible.

I repeat: the only difference might be at -135 db or lower, caused by trucates when converting from 32 floating point into 24 bits.

[mikemc]

ok, so this was the conversation we weren't going to have again

Randy H, I hear ya man... this is the undeniable computational mathmatical proof.

Now, here's why that slight difference in level may make a difference to some people:

Fletcher Munson curves or equal loudness contours. Ears don't have a flat response, and not all ears are equal. So a slight boost in level across all frequencies may be perceptible as a slight misbalance in some frequencies, due to the unequal sensitivity of the human ear.

Graphic illustration here: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

This is the theoretical mathematical justification for the passion of those who would assert they detect a difference based on the empirical mathematical proof provided by randyh.

Speaking of passion, Mr Yellow: duuude-- you roll out of bed and first thing sign onto the Ableton forum and hook into the A/B test?? you rock.

[MrYellow]

These files are sines anyway which aren't good for this type of test as far as I understand.

Some are single pure sines, others are combinations of many.

The key thing they were first designed for tho is to calibrate level meters,
then test and discover faults in different processing engines.

-Ben

[mikemc]

really really, randy's test is proof, and the equal loudness contours, indicating a slight flattening as levels are raised (and this would be very very slight in the case of randy's measurement) would provide a basis for a perceived difference.

[randyh]

I used science to prove my point. I proved that the files are identical. If you'd like to set up another test that proves your point in a scientific way, I'm all for it. I'd love to finally hear this difference so many people talk about. Until then, I think you're completely full of sh**.

- funny even liking the last bit

I'm no scientist
but the fact that loops sound great and enhanced on live as opposed to say how i do it in nuendo says that it sounds diff. no effcs just straight.

i like the sound, but it is a bit more low fi.

i have done tests at home with 3 sets of spks
1.PMC TB2ACTIVE - these are good monitors for around 1700quid
2.TANNOY REVEALS
3.GALE HOME SPKS

All tell me the same stuff, good to have diff in opinion, i truly cant stand nuendo now and reallly hope that live turns out better, truly as it is so time saving.

lets hope your right. to my ears i can see clearly some things are being added and some subtracted through the live engine. some things sound better but there is a little punch missing in live as compared to nuendo.
just as when using hardware ( take an old tom middleton trk like 'the way' ) there is a lot more punch in the kick than in nuendo/logic.

i am going to make most of my track in live bounce the whole thing to nuendo and then add sparkly percusion to it and also add a soft punch to the kick/prob a little mid range to see if this works.i really hope it does.

I'm glad you're able to see the humor in the whole thing

I'm also glad you're hearing a difference between the two, it means you have good speakers and good ears (I have dynaudio bm6a's myself). But like I said before, the difference is a .374db volume boost on the loop made in Live. A small difference in volume is almost always percieved as an improvement. People usually launch off into hi-fi gibberish to explain the difference, but it's really just volume.

I'm not sure I understood your test. What is it going to prove if you're adding things in Nuendo? What did you mean by "add sparkly percussion"?

-r

[MrYellow]

really really, randy's test is proof

and I really really shouldn't care about this whole load of crap


but.....

I'd like to see what happens when the gain difference is 0 not 0.374.

It's not quite scientific yet..... You've shown there is a difference, now it's
a good idea to demostrate what it takes to make it 100% zero difference.

If all it takes is gaining one 0.374 then we should expect to see a totally
empty wav when this is done and sublimated. If something still remains,
then I think it's safe to say there is "some" difference. Although no one
cares and it doesn't matter at all .... It's "fun" lol

-Ben

[AdamJay]

The only argument those guys have is the difference between the *summing busses* in the DAW's. This test only involves one file so it doesn't test the summing bus since we're not summing anything. We'd have to do a test where several tracks are mixed together.

-r

Randyh
my test WAS with multiple files mixed and summed in Live and Logic.
i thought i made that pretty clear, i used a FEW loops from a commercial sample CD that were SUMMED in both Live and Logic.

this IS a test of the summing busses

[supster]

this IS a test of the summing busses

well there ya go. proof that people on the internet:

a) do not listen

but also

b) do not read

please bury this topic once and for all please god .. please ..
.

[dj metronome]

my remidy is i'm going to render a live mixdown to disk then i'm going to add some hats in nuendo to give it sparkle.
plus points is that the rumble bass achievable in live is far more impressive for house


Why do you have to go through the trouble of using two deferent programs? These test were done flat- no eq. All it takes is a good eq at the mastering stage. You can add sparkle and sizzle to the hats and make the bass rumble, but two many low frequencies is not a good thing.

[randyh]

Thank you raapie and mikemc for the support. I regret even mentioning the summing bus thing now but I guess someone would have brought it up eventually anyway.

For those who don't know, summing digital audio is as simple as adding each sample together for a given "snapshot" in time (defining digital audio as a series of snapshots of the amplitude over time). It's simple addition. That's it. When you go to the theoretical limits of the bitrate, then you have the truncation errors like raapie said. But that is WAY below the threshold of hearing.

The point is, the same results will come up from any summing bus tests you do. The tests from gearslutz I mentioned earlier were summing bus tests. The results were in the -130db range.

-r

[randyh]

really really, randy's test is proof

and I really really shouldn't care about this whole load of crap


but.....

I'd like to see what happens when the gain difference is 0 not 0.374.

It's not quite scientific yet..... You've shown there is a difference, now it's
a good idea to demostrate what it takes to make it 100% zero difference.

If all it takes is gaining one 0.374 then we should expect to see a totally
empty wav when this is done and sublimated. If something still remains,
then I think it's safe to say there is "some" difference. Although no one
cares and it doesn't matter at all .... It's "fun" lol

-Ben

I did that test. How do you think I got the 0.374 number

adjusted.wav was the one that was total silence. The no_change.wave had a small difference due to the volume diff.

-r

[randyh]

The only argument those guys have is the difference between the *summing busses* in the DAW's. This test only involves one file so it doesn't test the summing bus since we're not summing anything. We'd have to do a test where several tracks are mixed together.

-r

Randyh
my test WAS with multiple files mixed and summed in Live and Logic.
i thought i made that pretty clear, i used a FEW loops from a commercial sample CD that were SUMMED in both Live and Logic.

this IS a test of the summing busses

SWEET! I thought it was just one sample. I guess that explains the volume diff. The summing busses must be rounding in different directions...

KIDDING!!!

Well I guess that's it then. We can all sleep soundly now. Thanks again for performing the test adamjay!

-r

[AdamJay]

they don't call them St. Lunatics for a reason or anything

its no big deal that he didn't realize that but i want people to know that YES, this IS a test between the two summing busses.

If it were not, then the 2 spectral analysis' from Waves PAZ that i showed on Page 3 would be totally 100% identical. We SEE some deviations, but do we HEAR deviations? No. And there are deviations in the Logic spectrum that favor Live, as there are ones that favor Logic as well. So there is no "winner". There is no "superior". You can't say Logic is superior because it has better detail at 16000hz, because Live has better detail at 750hz.

Here is the most important thing of all. These spectrum analysis' are measuring frequencies in the digital domain. Any deviation in the frequency differences between these 2 applications would FAR be outweighed by using a soundcard with a less than desirable digital to analog converter. Live through an RME Hammerfall is going to sound better than Logic through an Soundblaster PCI. k?
Logic through an 828MKII is going to sound better than Live through your HP's 1/8" output.
These 0.07% differences in the sound of the mixing busses are NOTHING if you're going through a crap DAC.

Hopefully with this test, in the future folks will consider their soundcards to be the fault of poor mix quality, or their own ears to be at fault. Because we have now seen that the mixing buss of Live cannot be blamed.

[mikemc]

If all it takes is gaining one 0.374 then we should expect to see a totally
empty wav when this is done and sublimated. If something still remains,
then I think it's safe to say there is "some" difference. Although no one
cares and it doesn't matter at all .... It's "fun" lol

-Ben

agree on all points. (edit: and I see that randy has done that, so yeh!) I'm still not sure what's ultimately being tested, though, the rendering or the actual output.

[randyh]

this IS a test of the summing busses

well there ya go. proof that people on the internet:

a) do not listen

but also

b) do not read

please bury this topic once and for all please god .. please ..
.

And from the dude who's blue in the face from arguing his side. What a douche.





sorry, should have read more carefully.

-r