Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

Do you want the CHANGELOG published ?

Yes, of course. Goes without saying.
151
93%
No. Changelogs confuse me.
12
7%
 
Total votes: 163

dum
Posts: 2678
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Maybe I should pursue a career in politics, seeing as I'm such a master manipulator :lol:
[/sarcasm]

I never set out to manipulate this changelog scenario. The entire excuse for removing the changelogs has been put down, officially, to one thing: confusion (and in some cases 'terror'...lol). It is not my wish to suggest not wanting a changelog published is because of confusion - it is officially ableton's stance on the topic, as Dennis has been repeating (you've even quoted him on it). Hence it's inclusion in the no vote. The 'of course, it goes without saying' suffix to the yes vote is simply because...well simply because of course, publishing a changelog goes without saying. I'm having trouble thinking of any other piece of software on my machine which doesn't have changelogs published in it's name.

Really, the idea that I somehow manipulated the results of this poll with my wording is beyond ludicrous and pretty insulting to the 77+ (and counting) customers who have taken the time to say they expect one. IF ANYTHING... it is the NO vote which is probably artificially high through conscious/subconscious knee-jerk voting.


For anyone sincerely wanting the changelogs to be re-instated I suggest not letting the topic fizzle out.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

H20nly
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by H20nly » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:51 pm

:lol: even in denying it you're still doing it.

Dennis posted his statement regarding change logs and confusion in an obscure thread yesterday:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=141049

you start a completely new thread with a poll on it earlier today...

i believe you pointed out before, that this forum has 43,000 + users on it... tell me if today, at the time of my typing this, hours after your poll was started, that thread has had roughly 350 views (many of which are from the posters within it) how the hell is anyone to know that was basically a sound bite from Dennis single post as one of their 2 polling options without first having read the thread/post?

then you say that I've even quoted him... *sigh* but that was after the fact.

really? this is your defense? reminds of me of a dumb ass that somehow stole a Presidency, ran up a Trillion dollar debt and sent men, woman, equipment and money to war to cover up his own mistakes and those of the men before him. he used blotchy rhetoric to shiftily state things in questionable order after the fact as well.

please don't answer, just go ahead and jump start your career in imperial style politics. Do what you claim to hate and rain your oppression down on all within your reach. hopefully you'll step on the toes of some Texas style pimp and then I can watch on the news as all the tiny little life size statues that you've had erected of yourself are torn down.


P.S. they're called Read Me's half the time and if you think they're all inclusive you're truly daft.

P.P.S. don't kid yourself... a chunk of those 350 + views came after I posted the link to it in this thread... something you should have done on page 1, post 1.

/dancing with mule
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

dum
Posts: 2678
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:05 pm

H20nly wrote:how the hell is anyone to know that was basically a sound bite from Dennis single post as one of their 2 polling options without first having read the thread/post?
single post ? you're wrong buddy, it's been said several times that the reasoning behind removing the changelogs is purely down to not wanting to cause confusion, and in some cases terror (i lol every time i recall that)

people voting don't necessarily need to know it's a soundbite, ableton have been stating via their representatives on the forum that confusion is precisely the reason a changelog shouldn't be published. If it's not already patently obvious, I think that's ridiculous. Many agree.

but this train of discussion is utterly pointless - the voting hasn't been skewed despite your arguments to the contrary. people simply aren't that stupid or easily led into a yes vote on this topic. maybe you haven't been reading threads on the rest of the board but 'bring back the changelogs' seems to be the soup du jour. have I been feeding them with post hypnotic suggestions in those threads too ? :roll: creating this poll was a simple way of addressing the topic, rather than many people all saying the same thing through a scattering of threads, which would be easier to ignore and perhaps easier to mistakenly overlook how important paying customers find changelogs to be.

what you want to do is derail the simple topic at hand, and you've been doing OK on that front but it stops here. I'll be doing my best to ignore your posts throughout the rest of this thread, unless they're worth addressing (i.e not laced with your favourite additive - forum drama bs)

have a nice day :D
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

H20nly
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Location: The Wild West

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by H20nly » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:08 pm

dum wrote:I'll be doing my best to ignore your posts throughout the rest of this forum
fixed.



have a nice bowel movement :D
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

jsn
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by jsn » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:11 pm

A changelog would be a good addition. It is nice to sometimes anticipate potential issues with new midi device or plugins. Also, if an issue persists after an update, it is useful to be able to see whether that particular problem appears in the changelog. If so, then I know to contact support for further assistance because the problem I thought I had (indicated in the changelog file) was apparently not the cause for errors experienced. Thanks for considering the move. By the way, it would be very convenient to see the changelog as a text file (without having to use the forum), if at all possible. (If beggars can be choosers for a short while)

dum
Posts: 2678
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:51 pm

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:13 pm

jsn wrote:By the way, it would be very convenient to see the changelog as a text file (without having to use the forum), if at all possible.
+1
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

The Carpet Cleaner
Posts: 1128
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Location: Paris

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by The Carpet Cleaner » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:49 am

I use evernote, adium, transmission, skype, etc... Reguarly there is an update and there is always a changelog. All those applications are free and I dont really care about them, there are great but there are not my priority.

Now Live gets an update, it's the most important application I got, I paid good money for it, there was an official post saying there were "fixing it", they've been working on the new update for several months, and there is no changelogs ? what the hell ? I beleive an update should ALWAYS comes with a changelog. That's like the obvious.

And the reason the changelog is too confusing, sorry but that's bullshit. If it's the truth, then it means the changelog has been poorly writen. Because for a product such as Live, the changelogs should be understandable for the end users. we are not developers and the product is not in development stage.
Anyway, in the past, ableton has always provided some kind of changelogs, they were understandable for us poor human, and it was great. Why should we change that now?

Pasha
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by Pasha » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:10 am

I voted no.
Although in the software industry is common for patches to have an associated readme file with the list of fixes,
most people simply install the patch and test if it works, because is in the nature of software (not only Ableton's)
to have different behavior on different systems / configurations. When it comes to software,we're all software companies'
guinea pigs. Having said so although I often did not read them I will miss the changelogs a little bit but I can live without them.
90% of the times by reading it I discovered that I should have experienced a bug which I did not....
Better to be informed about the new functions eventually added IMHO.
Yes I do not trust the software industry, I work within it and I saw enough, however some are better than others and Ableton
is within the good ones for me.

- Best
- Pasha
Mac Studio M1
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

orgul
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by orgul » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:17 am

@ableton:

you make us legit users betatesters of live 8 for a long time now.

I bought 8 when it came out and it rouined the production of a to be released project

and now you want us users to not even know what the progess of your product is...

I think you are making a big mistake here.

broc
Posts: 1151
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by broc » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:27 am

orgul wrote:@ableton:

you make us legit users betatesters of live 8 for a long time now.

I bought 8 when it came out and it rouined the production of a to be released project

and now you want us users to not even know what the progess of your product is...

I think you are making a big mistake here.
+1

Not publishing release notes looks very "unprofessional" to me.

One may even suspect that the changes are not properly documented at all..

Hermanus
Posts: 1659
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Location: Belgium

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by Hermanus » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:47 am

a must have for users... changelog needed!

8.1.3 is out, they "resolved" a bunch of stuff... users are in a blind state with seeminly remaining bugs>> i.e APC40

I love ableton live but I would loooove to see the actual changelog from 8.1.1 to 8.1.3 what's been solved? what's been not?

Angstrom
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:56 am

I guess the answer to "Changelogs cause F.U.D, so we removed them"
is to have the changelogs be more detailed and accurate, so instead of the old mysterious changes such as :

21: Live could crash when moving a clip in certain situations

we would instead have

AB59283421: Live would crash when moving a clip if a user had a Euphonix controller on controller 2 in the preferences page, but set to pick-up on all controllers while controller 1 (any controller) was locked to a device in an odd numbered track (if the user was using a multi-core machine). Several other issues were resolved by this fix, including but not limited to : controller unplugged crash incidents (link), cheesecake incidents (link), fubar incident (link)

Although it would be extra work for the support team, it surely falls under a requirement to steady the ship after the noted recent crashy problems. I guess this detailed info already exists in bugzilla somewhere in-office(?)

I think this extra detail would limit any "sky is falling in" responses from users which can arise with the too brief existing changelog, and also it will provide a lot of nice reassuring information for users who experienced any related crashing.

Often when a bug is resolved we only know that our problem is now fixed, in the current version. But without more clues to the fix we can never be sure if it was a targeted fix, or a lucky fix as a consequence of something else (meaning it could one day return)

When we have the details we can test better ourselves ("Did I have my Euphonix in controller #2, or was it #3, I know I can test this situation") without detail we cannot help.

Pasha
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by Pasha » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:36 pm

Angstrom wrote:I guess the answer to "Changelogs cause F.U.D, so we removed them"
is to have the changelogs be more detailed and accurate, so instead of the old mysterious changes such as :

21: Live could crash when moving a clip in certain situations

we would instead have

AB59283421: Live would crash when moving a clip if a user had a Euphonix controller on controller 2 in the preferences page, but set to pick-up on all controllers while controller 1 (any controller) was locked to a device in an odd numbered track (if the user was using a multi-core machine). Several other issues were resolved by this fix, including but not limited to : controller unplugged crash incidents (link), cheesecake incidents (link), fubar incident (link)

Although it would be extra work for the support team, it surely falls under a requirement to steady the ship after the noted recent crashy problems. I guess this detailed info already exists in bugzilla somewhere in-office(?)

I think this extra detail would limit any "sky is falling in" responses from users which can arise with the too brief existing changelog, and also it will provide a lot of nice reassuring information for users who experienced any related crashing.

Often when a bug is resolved we only know that our problem is now fixed, in the current version. But without more clues to the fix we can never be sure if it was a targeted fix, or a lucky fix as a consequence of something else (meaning it could one day return)

When we have the details we can test better ourselves ("Did I have my Euphonix in controller #2, or was it #3, I know I can test this situation") without detail we cannot help.
Despite my previous post (and vote), I'm with you on this one.
Maybe the reason why I found change logs less interesting was because of the lag of details.
What about actually opening a BugZilla -Like read only so that everyone interested can go and see? What do you think?
Mac Studio M1
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

ethios4
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Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by ethios4 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:43 pm

Sureno wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
Sureno wrote:it can be the decision maker between updating and not :?
why?
.
because if we DO have a problem and it's not addressed in the latest update why risk updating to encounter new problems?
+1

Dennis DeSantis
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Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 3:31 pm
Location: Ableton NYC

Re: Do you want the CHANGELOG published with each update ?

Post by Dennis DeSantis » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:51 pm

Hi folks,

Ok, we heard you and we're working on providing some information.

Now, go make some music :)

Best,
Dennis DeSantis
[email protected]

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