This device alone makes Max4Live worth it...

[alex.the.forge]

Nice thread GRB - I've been really meaning to check out H2K's amazing looking creation, but it's like M4L has been for me in general to date - I just haven't been lacking anything quite enough to put in the time. Things have been flowing really well with Live 8 for me, and those limitations you mention seem to be a good thing a lot of the time, just because it means I have to be more selective.

I know I have requested things like that before, but in the time since I seem to have got on with working around it, and now I have the VCM600 I'm finding it goes pretty well with those limitations.....

but I think you've prompted me to pull my finger out and try this!!

Looks awesome Bjorn.

[Poster]

you can bring up the help page.

I know about the help pages but that isn't my point.. My point is the non-descriptive, direct interface..
Help files are a great tool to learn from but as you said; you just don't memorize all the stuff that is written in them..
That's where a descriptive interface comes in.. Telling you just the basics of an object..
That also makes it possible to understand/'read' different objects simultaniously, where as with Max you can only hover one port at a time to get more info..

I'm not trying to bash Max here, I think its an absolutely fantastic app, but it does, imho, have serious flaws in how it presents itself to a user..

Just out of curiosity, can you go inside that comb filter to see the building blocks?

yep.. that building block is a Macro; a bpatcher..

[hoffman2k]

Cool. Its not that I'm trying to convince you or anything (gave up on that a few weeks ago ).
But its a helpful discussion about what the struggles are for newcomers.
The more experience I got in dealing with the differences between different types of patching methods, the easier it'll be to make lessons that everybody understands.
And making some bpatchers to be visual modules might not be such a bad idea. In a sense Ableton already did that for many API examples in the form of normal patchers.

Anyway.. I also do childrens parties.. I bore them to tears, making that clown seem less lame.

[3dot...]

theres' another difference.. max objects actually have syntax..
so .. because of that nature.. it's pretty important to go over the help$reference..

like a coding language... max gives you the ability to write your own annotations...
and ..in most objects.. the 'sockets' do have descriptions... you just need to hover your mouse over them...
the help files are an Alt-click away.. and most of the time just a quick look will do..
no need to read the whole thing if that's a problem
there's also the 'clue' window...
so I don't think that direct visual feedback is the problem..heck.. imo that's one of Max's strong points..

[Poster]

Cool. Its not that I'm trying to convince you or anything (gave up on that a few weeks ago ).

I know..

But its a helpful discussion about what the struggles are for newcomers.

As I see it, and I might be totally wong here;
Max has always been academic.. So are the C74 people themselfs..
I still feel that when I read comments on the forum; there's always this underlying tone that they just expect you to understand things..
The same goes for experienced hard core users.. But that's all fine, in a way..

The thing is that MFL isn't necessarily aimed at said academics.. And the Max5 rewrite was a great opportunity to rethink the approach to (new) users..
The interface got a great overhaul but C74 decided to maintain the academic approach while to me it's very obvious where they could've improved the new user experience even more..

In a sense Ableton already did that for many API examples in the form of normal patchers.

My point exactly..

[Poster]

max gives you the ability to write your own annotations...

not of great help when you re-use other people's stuff..
plus I'm not going to write an annotation for every single port of every single object I use..

and ..in most objects.. the 'sockets' do have descriptions... you just need to hover your mouse over them...

why hover when there could be descriptions visible all the time?
it's a choice, not a rule..

so I don't think that direct visual feedback is the problem..heck.. imo that's one of Max's strong points..

the lack of visual feedback is a strong point?

[3dot...]

hehe.. well ..you're gonna get there with your mouse to connect the cable anyways..no?
so .. no biggie.. and saves screen real-estate
btw 'bidule' and 'vvvv' work this way as well...



anyways.. I'm looking forward to Reaktor6 as much as for the next installment of m4l

[Hertz SM]

Maybe a little nitpicking, ...

No, not at all. Every hint is welcome.

[Poster]

Jumped late into this one too but...

the lack of visual feedback is a strong point?

I'd say yes. Because it leaves the choice for that where it should be; the programmer / user.

so I can choose to manually label every single port..

But you are right; most patches aren't very well documented.

really.. this isn't about prior documentation..


seriously.. does it bother people that much if I say that proper port labels could mean a huge thing for (new) Max users?
try to think as a new user for a change.. hiding info is not always a good thing..
I don't care about the mouse hovering or the help pages.. this is about immediate oversight..

[hoffman2k]

Maybe they'll make a switch on Max one day that makes it suitable for horizontal patching and has all arguments as inlets.

http://www.pedjanikolic.co.uk/3D_Blog/w ... 0image.jpg

It could work too. I just got used to Max. As you may recall, I'm one of those nutters who started learning Plogue Bidule because Live 3 didn't do MIDI

[Poster]

Maybe they'll make a switch on Max one day that makes it suitable for horizontal patching and has all arguments as inlets.

yeah.. I can only hope so..
can even be an option to have it as an alternative view..
so the die hard Max'ers don't get confused..

[Tone Deft]

sure I can hover the ports and get a description, but 5 minutes later I don't really recall what was what...

put the bong down.

forget what a port does? right click, open help there's an example patch that's easy to read and copy from. LOTS of patches I've seen over the years look like the help files.

I like the minimal look and feel of max. putting labels on ports would make patches HUGE. IMO the hovering method is great. ever notice that some ports are blue and others are red? there's more info in the hovering than meets the eye.

max has the best help and reference I've ever seen, it also has a steep learning curve. you have to put time in to practice and learn. I haven't been doing that but I'm in no hurry. I'm fine with the challenge of being a n00b, I like the process. I didn't get m4L to have more devices, I got it to play with. want more plug-ins? hit up http://www.dontcrack.com.


another tip: you can drag and drop directly from the info view into the patcher as messages.

[3phase]

Cool. Its not that I'm trying to convince you or anything (gave up on that a few weeks ago ).

I know..

But its a helpful discussion about what the struggles are for newcomers.

As I see it, and I might be totally wong here;
Max has always been academic.. So are the C74 people themselfs..
I still feel that when I read comments on the forum; there's always this underlying tone that they just expect you to understand things..
The same goes for experienced hard core users.. But that's all fine, in a way..

The thing is that MFL isn't necessarily aimed at said academics.. And the Max5 rewrite was a great opportunity to rethink the approach to (new) users..
The interface got a great overhaul but C74 decided to maintain the academic approach while to me it's very obvious where they could've improved the new user experience even more..

In a sense Ableton already did that for many API examples in the form of normal patchers.

My point exactly..

DO i get this wright.. even more than in reaktor you are bond to the macros you collected or create yourself or you have to reinvent the wheel every time again?

[hoffman2k]

DO i get this wright.. even more than in reaktor you are bond to the macros you colleted or create yourself or you have to reinvent the wheel evry time again?

You probably didn't get it right as I have no clue what you are asking.
With "Macros" do you mean "reaktor modules"?

[Hertz SM]

3phase seems to have the impression that Reaktor comes with tons of modules, but also macros and instruments (plus ensembles), while Max leaves you alone with a massive help file.

But this discussion is helpful in itself. I now understood that this famous max help file is basically (in Reaktor speech) a huge collection of modules shown in macros. You don't see it because they're locked thus the patch visualisation is 'smoothed'. All the help blabla is just message windows grouped around the object (module). Therefore you can copy all content *banginghead*.