Am I Crazy, LIve has Huge Headroom??

[[nis]]

^ Maybe something along these lines:

Code: Select all

int StartBug()
{
char SerialNumber;
int BugSize=1;
int NumberOfLegs=4;

if (SerialNumber == RegisteredOnSubfunk)
     {
        DisplayBigUglyBugOnScreen;
        LetBugEatMidiNotesFromClips;
        BugSize++1;
        NumberOfLegs++2;
     }
 
else    RunLiveWithoutBugs;
}

[H20nly]

^ nah make everyone wait until 8.1.15 to run that last exception.

the whining is starting to become kinda cute.

like the 2 legged bug

[alex.the.forge]

i dont know..

agreed.

wait and see fanboy.. the future will bring the air bus...

the art of mixing is not a simple addition of signals.. that is just not the way soundsources mix by nature..

and no digital nerd can opose to that simple fact..


An old style analog console is in many regards closer to the natural process of mixing in the dynamic media air than the 2+2=4 digital mixing bus.

A plain addition is a rather primitivistic approach towards mixing of sounds..


The best mixer is air

not a contemporary digital mixbus..

there is defenetly room for further invention. a lot of room actually

all sounds very interesting and academic, but I draw your attention to this thread: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 76&start=0

[H20nly]

ROAR

in 3...2...

[jbodango]

^ Maybe something along these lines:

Code: Select all

int StartBug()
{
char SerialNumber;
int BugSize=1;
int NumberOfLegs=4;

if (SerialNumber == RegisteredOnSubfunk)
     {
        DisplayBigUglyBugOnScreen;
        LetBugEatMidiNotesFromClips;
        BugSize++1;
        NumberOfLegs++2;
     }
 
else    RunLiveWithoutBugs;
}

NICE!!!
I almost spit my beer out.

I haven't tried searching for easter eggs in the forum yet. Any hints?

[andrewbrewer]

to the person who said "never go into the red" ... i've found going into the red on the master behaves similarly to the saturator effect. it's not a bad thing, that type of distortion is all over dance music, esp. if you are talking 1990's and earlier. if you are interested in having a bit more control over the saturation and its characteristics, i suggest just outright placing a saturator effect on the master strip. you would have more flexibility. then, of course, you want to keep the level green, or follow the saturator with a limiter, unless you want "double" saturation (not necessarily a bad thing, btw).

[leedsquietman]

People buy API gear because it has it's own sonic signature and it's own flavour of coloration, especially it's mic pres.

Neve too and to a lesser extent SSL (which is typically more neutral sounding than Neve and API).


People don't buy API/Neve or most analogue gear to sound 'transparent'. They buy it because they LIKE the distortions and harmonics and colorations it adds. Stuff like Thermionic Culture 'Fat Bustard' and TL Audio's 'Fat Track' are especially marketed for their valve character to warm up so called 'sterile' sounding digital mixes etc.

Which, without wanting to get into a digital vs analog debate, is why some people still prefer to mix outside the box.

As far as headroom goes, Nico put it perfectly - when mixing in the box, because of floating point resolution, you can drive it way into the red before you 'hear' clipping but if you exported/rendered that audio. esp to 16 bit formats like CD audio/mp3 etc it would sound gash.

[alex.the.forge]

to the person who said "never go into the red" ... i've found going into the red on the master behaves similarly to the saturator effect. it's not a bad thing, that type of distortion is all over dance music, esp. if you are talking 1990's and earlier. if you are interested in having a bit more control over the saturation and its characteristics, i suggest just outright placing a saturator effect on the master strip. you would have more flexibility. then, of course, you want to keep the level green, or follow the saturator with a limiter, unless you want "double" saturation (not necessarily a bad thing, btw).

the person was an Ableton employee and you should heed his advice - because that distortion you are hearing is the sound of your sound card/mixer/speakers being overloaded and unless you are mixing to an external analogue medium then when you render that file you won't hear it, but what you will get is clipping - which is not the same as analogue saturation. Clipping in the digital world means the signal is stopped when it hits the peak - truncated - flat lined. No nice distortion just clicking because the audio above 0dBFS is cut away.

Very not good.

The reason you hear saturation on older 90s music is because they were often still using analogue gear

BTW - 60dB headroom or not, I just can't bring myself to do it.... I first learned to record on tape and spent a lot of my working life in live sound and I just can't get away from that way of doing things

and I still think it's a good habit to be in anyway, it makes for good gain structure, even if it does lead to placebo tweaks!

[3phase]

People don't buy API/Neve or most analogue gear to sound 'transparent'. They buy it because they LIKE the distortions and harmonics and colorations it adds. .

i just heard one of the new API´s.. 16 channels for 40K ..It sounds great


??? what distortion? when you measure such a highend console for distortion you wont find any .. ok.. maybe 0,01%

Theese highend desks are no fuzz boxes !!

ANd coloration? what coloration are you talking about? the freq response is perfectly flat between 20hz and 20khz..

noise floor? better than 100 db...

so regarding the technical data you diginerds love so much it should actually sound pretty much the same as a daw with a decend converter..

ANd clear? what do you call a clear sound? can it get any better than sparkeling transparent highs that easily go above 20 k?
Of cause the sound more alive and heavy.. but the sound is extremly clear.. silvery silky clear .it cant get any more clear than this..


what you call colouration is actually a sound signatur.. but as it seems even daw´s have one..

I really dont belive that any DAW sounds the same just because my eras tell a different story.

Some say thats because the optical appearence of the user interface... ok..
than the "coloration" of an API desk is probably also from its optical appearance



I had so many digi versus analog dikussion in the last 20 years.. its pretty much the same as the apple windows discussion..

sometimes there are converts..like the former teldec studio in berlin.. in the early 90´s all desks was yamaha dmc 1000 and they gave me theire emt plates because they wanted to get rid of the old analog shit...
now they regret that they gave the emt´s away and have a analog ssl with total recall ( thats the really expensiv stuff )... to record classical music..

As soon it comes to music recording analog mixing is still strong..

And the interesting question is why..

my theory is that that what happens inside an analog desk is a similar process than that what happens to soundwaves that get mixed thru air ..

you can call it maybe a dynamical "distortion" or modulation.. tiny sounds appear more clear and seperated because they actually make place for each other..

so lets see the sound waves as a crowd of 100 people that want to get thru one gate.. they all mix..it gets a bit dense but they manage to get thru the gate without heavy damage by beeing a bit gentle and flexible..like good ravers on a crowded dancefloor..
thats analog mixing...

now lets look to digital mixing .. the 100 people get added.. precisely and than transported thru the gate.. they dont move themself..the get pushed, scanned.. sliced, put in little square boxes.. and than pressed thru the gate.. maybe it needs a little hammering from the back because some calculation error.. and than we are finaly thru..all healthy and in best shape..just a bit square.. but we fix that in the DA conversion chamber...

[Tone Deft]

ROAR!!!!

holy jumping jesus on a urinal cake, I have never read a more half baked half assed description of audio concepts in my life.



edit - I just had to quote this

People don't buy API/Neve or most analogue gear to sound 'transparent'. They buy it because they LIKE the distortions and harmonics and colorations it adds. .

i just heard one of the new API´s.. 16 channels for 40K ..It sounds great


??? what distortion? when you measure such a highend console for distortion you wont find any .. ok.. maybe 0,01%

Theese highend desks are no fuzz boxes !!

ANd coloration? what coloration are you talking about? the freq response is perfectly flat between 20hz and 20khz..

noise floor? better than 100 db...

so regarding the technical data you diginerds love so much it should actually sound pretty much the same as a daw with a decend converter..

ANd clear? what do you call a clear sound? can it get any better than sparkeling transparent highs that easily go above 20 k?
Of cause the sound more alive and heavy.. but the sound is extremly clear.. silvery silky clear .it cant get any more clear than this..


what you call colouration is actually a sound signatur.. but as it seems even daw´s have one..

I really dont belive that any DAW sounds the same just because my eras tell a different story.

Some say thats because the optical appearence of the user interface... ok..
than the "coloration" of an API desk is probably also from its optical appearance



I had so many digi versus analog dikussion in the last 20 years.. its pretty much the same as the apple windows discussion..

sometimes there are converts..like the former teldec studio in berlin.. in the early 90´s all desks was yamaha dmc 1000 and they gave me theire emt plates because they wanted to get rid of the old analog shit...
now they regret that they gave the emt´s away and have a analog ssl with total recall ( thats the really expensiv stuff )... to record classical music..

As soon it comes to music recording analog mixing is still strong..

And the interesting question is why..

my theory is that that what happens inside an analog desk is a similar process than that what happens to soundwaves that get mixed thru air ..

you can call it maybe a dynamical "distortion" or modulation.. tiny sounds appear more clear and seperated because they actually make place for each other..

so lets see the sound waves as a crowd of 100 people that want to get thru one gate.. they all mix..it gets a bit dense but they manage to get thru the gate without heavy damage by beeing a bit gentle and flexible..like good ravers on a crowded dancefloor..
thats analog mixing...

now lets look to digital mixing .. the 100 people get added.. precisely and than transported thru the gate.. they dont move themself..the get pushed, scanned.. sliced, put in little square boxes.. and than pressed thru the gate.. maybe it needs a little hammering from the back because some calculation error.. and than we are finaly thru..all healthy and in best shape..just a bit square.. but we fix that in the DA conversion chamber...

[leedsquietman]

Of course it isn't a fuzzbox, I never suggested it WAS

Harmonic distortion (in small quantities) is a pleasing thing to the ear (Not to be confused with clipping, or overdrive ... this is why people still use things like original LA-2As because the UAD or plugin versions cannot give you the 4th order harmonic (with a touch of overdrive which sounds pleasing) when you push it past 80 on the peak reduction. And people still love the sound of analogue tape saturation and compression, how analog clips as opposed to digital and are continually striving to recreate these effects digitally, although some plugins give some of this essence, they don't give you the full monty.

I worked on API, MCI Trident and SSL consoles for the best part of 6 years, so I know how they function.

As for DAWS, I totally disagree that they sound different at present, having worked with several DAWS at home and in the studio where I was working, I have seen and done my own null testing. Although that doesn't mean that in future, there won't be differences, just as when Samplitude first brought 32 bit float to the table, there was a noticeable difference from older 24 bit DAWS. The rest quickly caught up and there hasn't been anything of note since.

Both of these points can be argued, and we've done them both to death already here and elsewhere, so just go with your personal preference.

[3phase]

ROAR!!!!

holy jumping jesus on a urinal cake, I have never read a more half baked half assed description of audio concepts in my life.[/quo


sure.. you are done deft.. you know it all because you have read it in production partner

[Tone Deft]

just a personal attack, OK, I had that coming.

3phase I do honestly believe that you have a lot to offer forum readers. I just think you try waaaaay too hard to impress people. stay within your comfort zone and we could all learn a lot from each other.

when I post bad info please do correct me. I've posted a LOT about what I know and have been corrected many many times by the people on this forum, that's the learning process. there's also stuff I don't post about because I don't have a freaking clue about it but I know other people will step in and we can learn together.

ROAR!!!

[3phase]

Of course it isn't a fuzzbox, I never suggested it WAS

Harmonic distortion (in small quantities) is a pleasing thing to the ear (Not to be confused with clipping, or overdrive ... this is why people still use things like original LA-2As because the UAD or plugin versions cannot give you the 4th order harmonic (with a touch of overdrive which sounds pleasing) when you push it past 80 on the peak reduction. And people still love the sound of analogue tape saturation and compression, how analog clips as opposed to digital and are continually striving to recreate these effects digitally, although some plugins give some of this essence, they don't give you the full monty.

I worked on API, MCI Trident and SSL consoles for the best part of 6 years, so I know how they function.

As for DAWS, I totally disagree that they sound different at present, having worked with several DAWS at home and in the studio where I was working, I have seen and done my own null testing. Although that doesn't mean that in future, there won't be differences, just as when Samplitude first brought 32 bit float to the table, there was a noticeable difference from older 24 bit DAWS. The rest quickly caught up and there hasn't been anything of note since.

Both of these points can be argued, and we've done them both to death already here and elsewhere, so just go with your personal preference.

I havent tested it in depth lately.. havent done an album for a long time.. thats the times where the soundquestion pops up for me..
i dont care much for a single..

A few years ago the difference between daw´s was significant..that it turned much smaller i ve realized.. or lets say.. ableton was able to catch up with the others.. if they are really the same by now i will judge myself in a while.. well might be.. but there was to many digital lies around in the past.. we will see.

I dont belive too much into published measurements.
I had to do the measuring stunt for many years.. i was setting pro studios into function..removed errors in the installation..measured the system. And also learned how to measure what i want, so the best measuring chart is the one you fake yourself..reproduceable of cause..its no fraud..its just tricks... aso.. i have a technical background and i experianced many phenomens against technical belives that was prooven wrong after deeper investigation.. especially when it came to old valve gear..ther some tricks really never made it to the books.

Audio and the perception of audio is a very complex theme... And people that claim that they know all about it appear rather unwise to me.. Most of the time theire wisdom is only from books. Problem is that sometimes not all knowledge makes it into the books. Or in some cases little printing mistakes cause trouble. For decades people calculated wrong helmholtz resonators... just one number badly printed. overseen by the author.. and copied like that on and on.. i think now its corrected in the newest releases... so better trust your ears.

Why the hell everybody trys to emulate analog behavior with digital means theese days?
Isnt that a contradiction?

Because it pleases the ear.? But shouldnt precission not be even more pleasing to the ear?

if we experiance an acoustical concert..where is the analog distortion that pleases the ear there?

In the digtal domain people use tons of highend plgs theese days that emultae old analog filters and compressors..

but why does the result still just dont sounds the same as when using the original gear ?
what is missing?
LImits of contemporary dsps`or is there something missing in the equation?
My bet goes for something missing in the equation..

Or they just forgot to model the mixbux?

I personally think thats the part of a the desk that is together with the preamps most dominant for the sonical signature..
place 2 is the powersupply
than come the filters and the compressors..
the sound of a desk is allready there without them...

[3phase]

just a personal attack, OK, I had that coming.

3phase I do honestly believe that you have a lot to offer forum readers. I just think you try waaaaay too hard to impress people. stay within your comfort zone and we could all learn a lot from each other.

when I post bad info please do correct me. I've posted a LOT about what I know and have been corrected many many times by the people on this forum, that's the learning process. there's also stuff I don't post about because I don't have a freaking clue about it but I know other people will step in and we can learn together.

ROAR!!!

i really dont care about what people think about me wether do i try to impress anybody...

I have my opinion.. and its based on experiance.. oposite to many other opinions that are really based on magazin knowledge.

ask 10 audio experts about the best way to do xy and you will get 10 different answers...