Am I Crazy, LIve has Huge Headroom??

[fishmonkey]

I did some a/b on my own material and I swear it actually sounds better/fatter by doing this. My physical output is still not clipping but by comparing having the levels way down in the green and turning the volume of my mixer up compared to having the channels hitting in the red, the sound is fatter and its not a result of a volume difference...

to do a proper A/B of this "phenomenon" you need to be sure that all your effects are still processing the same signal levels in both cases...

e.g. if some of your effects are post-fader then you are not actually comparing the same sounds anymore...

[SubFunk]

^ Maybe something along these lines:

Code: Select all

int StartBug()
{
char SerialNumber;
int BugSize=1;
int NumberOfLegs=4;

if (SerialNumber == RegisteredOnSubfunk)
     {
        DisplayBigUglyBugOnScreen;
        LetBugEatMidiNotesFromClips;
        BugSize++1;
        NumberOfLegs++2;
     }
 
else    RunLiveWithoutBugs;
}

[Grappadura]

but what if you just drive the master into red?

This will cause clipping on the DACs of your soundcard / audio interface. The master track or any track which is routed to an external output should never go into the red.

Individual channels which are routed internally can be driven hot, because floating point calculations are not restricted to 0 dB. There's a safety limit at +60 dB, though. Anything beyond +60 dB will clip (in Live).

Best,
Nico

thx. well it doesnt always sound like its clipping. if its way into red, sure, but at just one or 2 db sometimes I won´t hear any clipping. this contradicts the other fact I´ve heard, that digital clipping always sounds harsh.

to get this straight: "headroom" is 60 db per track, but on the master there is no headroom.

[SubFunk]

but what if you just drive the master into red?

This will cause clipping on the DACs of your soundcard / audio interface. The master track or any track which is routed to an external output should never go into the red.

Individual channels which are routed internally can be driven hot, because floating point calculations are not restricted to 0 dB. There's a safety limit at +60 dB, though. Anything beyond +60 dB will clip (in Live).

Best,
Nico

thx. well it doesnt always sound like its clipping. if its way into red, sure, but at just one or 2 db sometimes I won´t hear any clipping. this contradicts the other fact I´ve heard, that digital clipping always sounds harsh.

to get this straight: "headroom" is 60 db per track, but on the master there is no headroom.

only when you render then there is 'no' headroom, you can run into the red on the master (like in any other DAW) when you play live... or just listen to your music, straight out of ableton, but not (never!!!) a slight bit when you render the track to disk.

then it should be (the master) always under 0db (anyways, for proper mastering)

[Grappadura]

it seems that if you render it while its clipping, the clipping parts will simply be cut (clipped). so it is kinda like a brickwall limiter effect, isnt it?

[SubFunk]

it seems that if you render it while its clipping, the clipping parts will simply be cut (clipped). so it is kinda like a brickwall limiter effect, isnt it?

basically yes, but with enormous ugly artefacts you hear! so avoid it under any circumstances.

you should render under 0db, really always, even if you push your track at home louder, then stick it into an editor, push it and still render with a max ceiling of -0.2 db (i mean out of the editor)

so whatever ends up on a CD has never been rendered at any stage above 0db in the digital realm.

[housemusiclover]

only when you render then there is 'no' headroom, you can run into the red on the master (like in any other DAW) when you play live...

Huh, sure you can but it clips either way, live and rendered. Or did i miss a memo?

[SubFunk]

only when you render then there is 'no' headroom, you can run into the red on the master (like in any other DAW) when you play live...

Huh, sure you can but it clips either way, live and rendered. Or did i miss a memo?

if i am not mistaken the question was wether you can get away with going into the red (having ugly artefacts or not, meaning if there is enough headroom to handle a clipping) and playing live or just listening back, is OK to clip into the red (up to the mentioned amount live can handle), rendering not, never!, it will down the line show it's digital distorted ugliness at some point...

[leedsquietman]

Axel is correct.

Digital clipping is nasty, analogue clipping is much smoother and can even be a desired effect, 'flat topping' a wave digital stylee is not smooth in any way and can introduce other distortions and artefacts/clicking/crackling and more.

Remember that analogue scale is different to digital - 0dbFS is equivalent to +18 (on crappy low quality boards) to +30 dB (or higher) on expensive well made analogue boards, on an analogue scale. In other words, you can run signals well into the red before clipping, and it lends itself to a 'soft clipping' type characteristic rather than the slashing brickwall digital clipping.

[housemusiclover]

only when you render then there is 'no' headroom, you can run into the red on the master (like in any other DAW) when you play live...

Huh, sure you can but it clips either way, live and rendered. Or did i miss a memo?

if i am not mistaken the question was wether you can get away with going into the red (having ugly artefacts or not

Ok, gotcha. Just wanted to make sure the point gets across that whenever the master channel in Live lights up red, stuff is clipping.
I always got a limiter sitting there anyway in case some vst decides to go crazy white noise burst crashy...

[SubFunk]

another thing, because i said never! (when rendering)

it really is a never! with digital, because even if you do not hear it (you think you don't!!! it is there, believe me!) on your little home setup with average speakers, etc. if it clips even only slightly when rendering and you think, ah well that is OK i can get away with it, bring it onto a CD and play it somewhere and you get very nasty surprises.

as i said, to be sure a max ceiling whenever in the digital realm you render anything, no matter if out of Live, PT, any audio editor, or whatever audio program, should be -0.2db. (at least then you can be sure that any sound 'issue' is then somewhere in the mixing / mastering stage)

[Grappadura]

so "dont trust your ears" on this one?

[SubFunk]

so "dont trust your ears" on this one?

yes totally! trust your ears, i don't want to be mean... but, do you remember you could not even hear a difference at mine between different EQs...


well...

because even if you do not hear it (you think you don't!!! it is there, believe me!) on your little home setup with average speakers, etc.

[Grappadura]

we didnt actually test that at your place, I just told you that. its a matter of training I guess.

[dum]

I have seen and done my own null testing.

unless you've been posting the details of some recent tests and I missed them...
you're null tests are positively USELESS and have absolutely no reference to real-life usage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for your null tests don't you simply load the same wav source in each daw - then render the output, and phase cancel the results ? and this proves what ?

In the real world, people use automation. And it's a well documented fact (see: Robert Henke's comments on this, which you have acknowledged in the past) that each daw handles automation differently.

The 'automation engine' has a bearing on the output. Fact.

I'm not too interested in the sound quality discussion, but there's always one idiot blithering on about his utterly pointless null tests. and it's usually the same fella.