What's the advantage of using Bidule over MAx/Msp?

Danjel · Post by **Danjel** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:17 pm

Bidule seems pretty cool but not really that more intuitive to use than Max/Msp.

What is the fuss all about?

Which one is more efficient and will co-habitate with Live better?

cheers,
Danjel

Harris.Andrew · Post by **Harris.Andrew** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:46 am

Bidule is, at the moment, free. It will be payware soon, but will cost less. Less than, say, operator iirc.

conny · Post by **conny** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:47 pm

MAX/Msp is, I've heard, more powerful for programming at the ground level then Bidule. With that comes [Edit] harder to learn [/Edit] and more dependence of other peoples work, and a higher price.
Bidule is made to be more usable from the start, with the low end programming prefabed for most common uses.
So Bidule is quite fast to achieve some results from.

// C

dirtystudios · Post by **dirtystudios** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:24 pm

Actually, I just heard that the phrase "steep learning curve" means that something is easy to learn. I always though the opposite too.

Here's an article explaining.

k

conny · Post by **conny** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:46 pm

O right, I edited it accordingly!

Another answer to the MAX/Bidule question could be:
Looking at this forum, the Live and Bidule users seem to go quite well together.
That could indicate some resonance in terms of komplexity/results.

// C

computo · Post by **computo** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:10 pm

Its obvious that most of these users have not used Max/MSP...Max is FAR, I repeat FARFAR more powerful than Bidule. It is more than worth the cost, as you can add thousands of external objects, and visual capabilities.

I must tell you that Max is surely a much more intellectual program, requiring a given learning curve. But you will appreciate that curve, as it is not only an indispensible lesson in modular signal flow and synthesis, but it is an industry standard. Not only is Max/MSP perhaps the most important programming language for computer audio, it is what EVERY other program is built from...including basically every major vj software, Live, and SO many other programs.

Max/MSP is compatible with Java, C, html, flash and everythign else.

For your own musical knowledge, do not skimp on this program...it was the only one that I paid for...for a long time. they also have student discounts...that are worth the deal

computo · Post by **computo** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:12 pm

btw, that is completely different context than learning curve when it refers to individuals learning a trade or skill.

conny · Post by **conny** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:47 pm

So it seems they (Bidule and MAX) are different creatures.
You may set up a new Bidule layout in minutes, it's what I've heard good for live situations. And then you go home and program som MAX stuff, but you don't do that on stage - right?
// C

computo · Post by **computo** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:15 pm

you can do a lot of the same things in both programs, as far as simple midi and audio routing, so you CAN do live stuff in max, but usually, say with AUtechre, they build vast performance apps for themselves on Max, and then use those patches in performance...search online for Autechre Max patches...

If you're fluent and have a point of arrival, you can do anything onstage...its all about knowing your goal, and not flailing around with no idea where to go...if you know any program well enough you can do live performance with it.

My best advice in Max, is have an ending point when you start...know your goal, and then you can do almost anything.

As far as the comment about working from other peoples projects and the like...you can do that in Reaktor, or bidule, or anything...

Max is free for a month, so try it out... there is a great email list also, with some of the most important people in electronic music contributing...so when you get stuck, you can easily get advice from the likes of Kit Clayton and David Zicarelli. Max is no nonsense, or all nonsense, depending on your uses.

conny · Post by **conny** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:37 pm

Hm, thanks, things are clearing up.
Seems the problem then is I don't actually know where I want to go. And all the possible tools all around.
OK, time will tell.
// C

computo · Post by **computo** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22 pm

Thats the ticket.

Max has tons of great included tutorials that can offer tons of great inspiration. you can learn a lot just by building your own synth.

plonkman · Post by **plonkman** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:13 pm

Live aint built with max..

computo · Post by **computo** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:16 pm

originally yes, it was... every program is debugged in a more code based language, like C, but Live, as Ive read on this board, was conceived in Max.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:02 pm

I'm not sure that the Live : Max prototyping rumor was ever confirmed.

generally in application design the GUI is prototyped in the same toolkit as the app is to be built in. EG borland / Visual studio. Layouts are created in other apps sure, but even semi functioning versions generally tend to be made in the language they are destined for. Unless the eventual language is hand coded ASM, then it may be prototyped in a more high level language to work the bugs out.

It's my understanding that Live was written in C++ , talented C coders shouldnt have much problem prototyping direct from their IDE

If Live was prototyped in Max I think it would be unique in the field . I doubt very much that Cubase or Protools or Sonar or Acid or Nuendo or Soundforge or Reason were prototyped in Max.

computo · Post by **computo** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:17 pm

regardless, there have been plenty of apps written in Max, mostly with the aid of other codes, or additional external objects.

The point of this conversation, I believe, was what Max and Bidule have in common and what they dont...one main thing...MANY programs have been made, or "concieved" in the Max environment, and it stands out, untouched as a standard in electronic and computer music. There are other languages, but with Max, you can get into the important work fast.

And in working concept, I imagine a number of the named programs were in fact developed to proof of concept in Max.

What's the advantage of using Bidule over MAx/Msp?

What's the advantage of using Bidule over MAx/Msp?

hmm..