Making the switch to logic

[sparkletone]

(can only buy it from the Apple store as far as I can tell)

This is very much not the case. When I've bought Logic Express, Logic Studio and then Logic 9 over the last few years, I've bought from Amazon every time. I know I've seen the boxes for it at pretty much any music store that sells a lot of music software.

[Machinesworking]

Live is deceiving. It looks in a lot of ways like it is feature-poor but in fact it is not. In a few areas it is genuinely missing something, but in many ways it is already more feature-rich than Logic.

Disagree, there are differences, Lives routing is better than Logic's or about anybodies, but track automation in Logic is far superior to Lives.
The Arrange Page in Logic is better in almost every respect to Lives, Live has some nice shortcuts to editing in the Arrangement view, but it really doesn't compare to Logic's
toolset for editing etc.
I'm not saying this because I like Logic better, personally the advantages Live has keeps me mostly in Live, and I'm reaching for Digitial Performer more as a secondary DAW these days, it's just impossible to ignore the fact that for what the original poster here wants, Logic is probably going to be a better fit.

[luddy]

track automation in Logic is far superior to Lives.

Hmm, that's interesting. The only sense in which I prefer Logic's is automation curves. In all other regards I find Live's to be easier and faster to deal with.

If you automate a MIDI control in Logic, you can't select a span of time with the marquee tool and pull it up or down vertically the way you can in Live -- Logic doesn't create the "4-point" boundaries automatically for MIDI controls the way it does for instrument/effect parameters. Copying and pasting and moving around automation in Logic always gets me fouled up. I dread having to copy automation between parameters or between tracks. I get it done, but geez, what a fiddly interface. In Live, the rules are so simple: if you have a lane open, then you are copying/pasting to/from that parameter. No need for a separate marquee tool or selection tool. Easy squeezy. Also, the thing in Live where you touch a control on an instrument or effect and you are automatically looking at the automation data for it is wonderful. Region automation in Logic is a joke. Have you tried it? You convert a span of track automation to region data, and it gets hyperview-pasted over the region. It's another nightmare to cause it to reliably display the right piece of region automation data, and the rules for interaction between region data and track data are a muddle. Live's model causes headaches when you want to record automation in Session view, but the rules are very clear and it works exactly as advertised.

Anyway, I have to use Logic's automation a lot, so I've gotten used to it and I can get work done with it. But I don't think it is nearly so well done as, say, PT's automation or even Live's. (Except automation curves -- those are a very important omission.)

-Luddy

[SubFunk]

track automation in Logic is far superior to Lives.

Hmm, that's interesting. The only sense in which I prefer Logic's is automation curves. In all other regards I find Live's to be easier and faster to deal with.

i also think that Logic's automation handling and visualisation is by far superior to Live's, especially when you need visible access to multiple lanes as well.

[luddy]

i also think that Logic's automation handling and visualisation is by far superior to Live's, especially when you need visible access to multiple lanes as well.

You don't like the multiple lane thing in Live (the + button)? I think it's great. You can select a time span over multiple lanes simultaneously, and thereby ensure that the automation has identical boundaries in different lanes. And you can make lanes as big as you want to.

[Machinesworking]

and the rules for interaction between region data and track data are a muddle. Live's model causes headaches when you want to record automation in Session view, but the rules are very clear and it works exactly as advertised.

Logic has more than one way to handle automation, and there are various ways to do the same thing. This is true throughout the program. Live has one well thought out way usually, which for some is great etc. The thing is though, there are ways in Logic to speed up the process, key commands, different tools etc. nothing like that in Live.
Most every parameter for an AU is available to automate in Logic, not fussing with it, it's there. There are multiple ways to record automation, which Live does not have.
The tools to edit automation are there, you can lower automation like in Live, I haven't used it in about a year, but I'm certain of it, done it many times. In fact there's even a way to get to a Automation page, that allows you to cut and past track automation like regions though that's a sort of hack.

Digital Performer is even more extreme this way, here:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 420#p85420

[luddy]

you can lower automation like in Live, I haven't used it in about a year, but I'm certain of it, done it many times. In fact there's even a way to get to a Automation page, that allows you to cut and past track automation like regions though that's a sort of hack.

right, for ordinary track automation (for example, plug-in parameters), this is almost the same in Logic as in Live: swipe with marquee tool, click, pull and up and down. What I was talking about was MIDI CC data. Live's handling of this in automation lanes is fundamentally different from Logic's. In Live, it works the same as automation data (parameters): highlight a span, pull up and down. This is possible because Live automatically creates a 4-pt boundary from such a highlight + pull thing. Logic does that for parameters but not for MIDI CC lanes; Logic follows the usual conventions about MIDI CC where a node corresponds to sending one CC event, and there is no need to send two in immediate succession (at the same time point) since the second would override the first anyway. It's not a big deal, but it makes it much faster to do quick automation edits on MIDI CC stuff in Live, I think. The event views in Logic are nice, wish Live had that. Seems like such an easy thing to provide, and it lets you get around all kinds of other limitations.

[SubFunk]

i also think that Logic's automation handling and visualisation is by far superior to Live's, especially when you need visible access to multiple lanes as well.

You don't like the multiple lane thing in Live (the + button)? I think it's great. You can select a time span over multiple lanes simultaneously, and thereby ensure that the automation has identical boundaries in different lanes. And you can make lanes as big as you want to.

it's not about the + button, that is the same in logic, but in live it's just visually a disaster, much cleaner and smarter in Logic IMO !!!

i also like that Logic has an autozoom function for the lanes... whenever the focus is on those it's nice and large and if i move the focus away it collapses... it's often those tiny things that make a difference in convenience. plus the whole copy and paste / move automation data is also much neater in logic.

[Machinesworking]

What I was talking about was MIDI CC data. Live's handling of this in automation lanes is fundamentally different from Logic's. In Live, it works the same as automation data (parameters): highlight a span, pull up and down. This is possible because Live automatically creates a 4-pt boundary from such a highlight + pull thing. Logic does that for parameters but not for MIDI CC lanes; Logic follows the usual conventions about MIDI CC where a node corresponds to sending one CC event, and there is no need to send two in immediate succession (at the same time point) since the second would override the first anyway. It's not a big deal, but it makes it much faster to do quick automation edits on MIDI CC stuff in Live, I think. The event views in Logic are nice, wish Live had that. Seems like such an easy thing to provide, and it lets you get around all kinds of other limitations.

Get to know the Hyper Edit page if you use that kind of data a lot. You can do what you want to do there.
The main thing Live does over Logic editing wise that I like is the ability to add time and whole chunks of a song by selection.
When it comes to zooming and editing tinier bits of data in the arrangement though, Logic is miles better. I shudder every time I have to deal with surgical stuff in Live, and I shudder when I want to add three more cycles of the chorus to the completed arrangement in Logic.

[luddy]

Get to know the Hyper Edit page if you use that kind of data a lot. You can do what you want to do there.

I know the hyperedit page all to well and it's one of the reasons I'm a Live fan, haha.

The main thing Live does over Logic editing wise that I like is the ability to add time and whole chunks of a song by selection.
When it comes to zooming and editing tinier bits of data in the arrangement though, Logic is miles better. I shudder every time I have to deal with surgical stuff in Live, and I shudder when I want to add three more cycles of the chorus to the completed arrangement in Logic.

haha, we seem to have quite contrary experiences. It is very easy to copy / cut / insert time in Logic, including the global tracks. It's almost identical to Live in fact: insert silence, cut section, insert cut section, etc. There are buttons available for the toolbar that do those commands with one click.

[SubFunk]

haha, we seem to have quite contrary experiences. It is very easy to copy / cut / insert time in Logic, including the global tracks. It's almost identical to Live in fact: insert silence, cut section, insert cut section, etc. There are buttons available for the toolbar that do those commands with one click.

yep.

[Machinesworking]

haha, we seem to have quite contrary experiences. It is very easy to copy / cut / insert time in Logic, including the global tracks. It's almost identical to Live in fact: insert silence, cut section, insert cut section, etc. There are buttons available for the toolbar that do those commands with one click.

yep.

It's just ridiculously quick in Live, sure it's not much slower in Logic, but in Live select a verse and hit a key command three times, done.
From what I remember in Logic it asks you to select the measure in a dialog box..
Surgical editing wise, Logic is far beyond Live, that really cannot be argued, I was merely trying to give the Abes props by bringing up the simplicity of adding time and measures to a song.

Both of them are skunked by Digital Performer in automation and cc editing though, there's no doubt in my mind on that.

[kristian]

If I'm not mistaken, I think I got Digital Performer included when I bought my Ultralite Mk3... never installed it, mostly cause I haven't heard anything about it.. thanks for the tips Machinesworking; I'll give it a go when I get home... I'm mostly after a better Arrangement / Automation tool then Live; I guess those two can be a good pair

[Machinesworking]

If I'm not mistaken, I think I got Digital Performer included when I bought my Ultralite Mk3... never installed it, mostly cause I haven't heard anything about it.. thanks for the tips Machinesworking; I'll give it a go when I get home... I'm mostly after a better Arrangement / Automation tool then Live; I guess those two can be a good pair

Unfortunatley unless someone sold you a package deal used, what you get with the MOTU audio cards is basically a stripped down audio only program called Audio Desk.
It probably doesn't have the more advanced editing of DP.

[kristian]

If I'm not mistaken, I think I got Digital Performer included when I bought my Ultralite Mk3... never installed it, mostly cause I haven't heard anything about it.. thanks for the tips Machinesworking; I'll give it a go when I get home... I'm mostly after a better Arrangement / Automation tool then Live; I guess those two can be a good pair

Unfortunatley unless someone sold you a package deal used, what you get with the MOTU audio cards is basically a stripped down audio only program called Audio Desk.
It probably doesn't have the more advanced editing of DP.

*curses*