monitors vs headphones

anonymouse · Post by **anonymouse** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:11 pm

after experimenting with new tracks in various live venues, on 2 different sets of monitor speakers in my studio, in my apartment on a decent stereo, on 3 different set of headphones on a CD player, a minidisc player and an mp3 player I can only suggest one thing -

get a commercial CD that you like and listen to it on your favourite system, identify how comfortable the sound sits in your headspace.

After all the experimentation I have done, I'd suggest those rubber ear-plug headphones that Sony and others do. Forget the audiophile stuff - very few of your audience will be listening on premium equipment, so why should you monitor on it.

Anyway, fous all your production on getting a good pair of walkman-type headphones performing just as you would like, and once you have accomplished that to a point of personal perfection, and have what you think is your master, have a beer or two and sit back and for the first time listen to your creation on a big open speaker system. Suddenly all the EQ and balance flaws will be obvious. AS heartbreaking as it is to hear your piece sound like crap on a bigger system, you can now jot down all the changes you need to make on a piece of paper and rectify them carefully as a post-production process.

Even trying to do that earlier in your creative process will just destroy the composition you are building. Just leave it until the last moment, when you think the mix is perfect on your favourite headphones. Then go and burst your balllon with the ambience of a club, bar or big home audio system. I think it is the best way to learn.

Tinhead · Post by **Tinhead** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:13 pm

rikhyray wrote:Where can you get these ? I saw some at the Messe but 150 Euro a pair seemed steep to me. Remember having some from Manny`s NYC but lost them long time ago.

Here in the U.S., there is a company out of Chicago called Sensaphonics that will set you up with a local audiologist to get them fitted (I'm sure there are similar companies internationally as well). They are a bit pricey, but depending on how often your ears are exposed to high sound levels (more bass, please) and how important accurate hearing will be to you in the future, it's definitely worth it in the long run.

kennerb · Post by **kennerb** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:41 pm

toneroll wrote:can anyone tell me exactly what tinitus feels/sounds like, by any chance?

If your dialogue starts sounding like Lil' Jon then you may have tinitus.

Seriously though I don't find headphones to be that big of a problem. The one big issue with them is that your mixes become bass heavy when played on a system. What I do when I can't be loud in the studio is to wear open backed headphones. The type that I like is the Grado SR60. They have a pretty good neutral bass response, are cheap, and sound really good. I'd always check my mixes with other speakers as well though.

http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm

What?... What?... Yeah!!!... OK!!!!

ultrasource · Post by **ultrasource** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:27 pm

kennerb,
nice to know someone else out there appreciates the grado line. i rock my sr-80's and sr-60's (I actually like the 60's better than the 80's for a lot of material) and they've never let me down. I have friends who make fun of my grados because they don't look very high tech but they blow most cans away.
If anybody hasn't heard a pair.... try to get your hands on a pair. Ok, I have to stop now because I don't work for Grado.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:47 pm

I guess everyone feels different about this subject. I have a pair of the old and trusted MDR-7506. Due to the fact that I don't have a decent monitoring system, I used them to mix *a lot*. My conclusions:

MDR-7506:
- Tight sound
- Very portable and rugged
- I don't quite like its cable

Mixing on headphones:
- Excellent for hearing in-depth detail and perfecting the sound of your takes
- Tiring
- Deceiving
- False stereo

I love my cans, but I gave up mixing on them like a month ago, I prefer doing it with my hifi and then *checking* with the cans. My mixes lacked bass and mid range detail. As for the bass, I don't know, most people say that when mixing with headphones you tend to emphasize it, it wasn't my case. The midrange issue is probably related to the fact that headphones have lower distorsion levels than speakers, hence you hear the midrange "clearer" and "better" and as a result, what sounds just fine on cans sounds with a lack of clarity on speakers.

And then, there's the tiring of your ears issue.

My 2 cents.

smart1123 · Post by **smart1123** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:20 pm

Audio-Technica ATMH-40fs or something like that, they make a DJ model with a bass boost and a 'flat' model for the studio. They sound good and are super comfortable and well enclosed.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:04 pm

Forget headphones for mixing.

And read this, just in case you didn't hear the advice above:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/a ... phones.htm

kennerb · Post by **kennerb** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:07 pm

Tomperson; thanks for posting that. Much respect for SOS. Love their articles.

I still think the bottom line is knowing the properties and nature of your soundsource. There are many drawbacks to cans as noted. Stereo separation being one of the bigger ones as well as the bass, but for convenience sake they just can't be beat and I certainly hope that folks that want to have their stuff heard would play it on as many systems as possible for mix quality before releasing it. Can't say how many times I have made a mix and then brought it to another system and it just sound spent.

Or as put in a much better way by SOS;
"Mixing with headphones is a challenge, as they are inherently inferior to loudspeakers in many ways. However, these deficiencies are often outweighed by the practical considerations. With practice it is possible to create perfectly acceptable mixes from beneath the headphones, but, just as getting acquainted to the sound of an unfamiliar pair of monitors takes time and effort, headphone monitoring is an acquired skill that requires an alternative way of listening"

Ultrasource; I love the Grado's! I wouldn't trade them for anything. I can work with them for hours without ear fatigue. I don't work for them either though it must sound like it

heh. Good thing retro is hip out here on the left coast so I don't get too many jabs about them. When I do I just hand them over for a listen and they usually zip it.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:19 pm

Yeah, I just wanted to let you know my experience. I bought my cans because I don't have the cash to buy a decent monitoring system, hoping that I would be able to improve my mixes (compared to what I do with the HiFi).

That has proven to be false for me (and many others who gave me this exact advice when I asked "what about mixing with a decent pair of headphones?"). Anyway, everyone is different, so what is bad for me may be good for you. Don't know.

I still use my cans when I go out with my laptop, anyway.

Long life MDR-7506.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:25 pm

Anybody with AKG K271 here?
I have them, but i would love to know how they match up to the ones you guys mentioned.
Personally i have no complaints.

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:24 am

Talking of headphones, I sold a STACK of stuff recently in auction, mostly for space/mental clutter reasons and decided to reinvest some of the cash in some Sennheiser HD650 cans..they arrive tomorrow and I can't WAIT!!

bighorse · Post by **bighorse** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:51 am

I use headphones a lot because of not having proper studio space, and not wanting to disturb others.

I have moderate tinitus now, which I got in the stupidest way possible: I was programming (writing the code, not making a patch) a VST synth, and testing with.... headphones! If any of you out there want to learn from someone else's idiocy, I'm here to tell you: headphones, whenever experimenting with audio, are a bad, bad thing.

I had a bug in my code at one point, SQWAAAAAAAAAK went my little VSTi, really, really loud, I ripped the cans off quickly, not quick enough . Ever since, I have tinitus. Some nights it wakes me up.

ConneKted · Post by **ConneKted** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:46 am

That's the way i got deaf on my right ear.

Still won't stop doing djmixes, but now i pre-listen with my left ear and monitor with my left ear (i've got my can placed half over my ear so the monitor sound can also enter my ear). Kinda hard but nothing won't stop me playing/making music ....

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:50 am

OMG

it seems like half of us have tinitus, exactly how prevalent is hearing damage in this forum?
Anyone reading this thing stuff like 'hey, I wonder what tinitus sounds like' or
'woo I'm so cool and youthful I just dont care- turn up the squarewaves!!'

Tinitus is as fun as having someone poking you in the face all night as you try to get to sleep. Like chinese water torture, every night.

Additionally : I burnt a hole in my retina when I was fixing a huge Barco projector ... it suddenly shorted and came on ... as I was staring into the bulb through the focusing lens. Sizzle. My left eye has been screwed for about 5 years now. Sucks getting old, my mistakes keep adding up!

ultrasource · Post by **ultrasource** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:56 pm

i'm 29 and i've been monitoring in headphones off and on for 11 years without even a sign of tinitus. I'm thinking it's because I listen at a respectable levels and don't crank them (or maybe I was blessed with good ear genes).
Monitoring through speakers is ideal, as many have said, but I'm in a situation (small apartment, unemployed) where I literally can't have proper monitors (unless, of course, someone wants to get rid of a decent pair for a fair price ...hint, hint). Hopefully this situation will change in the near future but for now, mixing in my Grados will suffice. I get better mixes right now than I did when I had my monitors and I attribute it to the fact that I monitor EVERYTHING I listen to (tv, music, home recordings) through my cans so I know them pretty weil. Again, I know this is not ideal but there is a time and a place for headphones.