an old thread -- please ignore

[Celtic]

Come on Celtic, lighten up, The Irish and the Jews built America from the ground up.

Got any links to where I could read up on that. I'm not that clued up on American History ?

[ilia]

My policy is, Fuck ANYBODY who thinks they can tell me what I can and cant think or say. I dont care if, what someone says or thinks, is derogatory to anybody. If they arent DOING anything to harm anyone, in a manner of legal terms, then why should that matter?

well, you seem to be implying that one can only be harmed by physical means, which is clearly not true, and in fact, legal systems in most democracies acknowledge "emotional damage".

more importantly, the anti-hate speech laws are based on some heuristical understanding that allowing free dissemination of racist/hateful/violent literature and media will, on balance, do more harm than good. While it is hard to say how universal this assumtion is, it is certainly true that many of the recent ethnic conflicts leading to genocide were preceeded by massive propaganda, usually tacitly if not openly supported by state. I would guess that in more volatile societies not criminalising hate speech can indeed lead to considerable harm, because a lot of upset young people are easily incited by it.

So think about it for a minute - unless you have a pretty good evidence that legalizing ANY sort of speech is, on balance, a positive thing for a society, you are basing your position purely on a quasi-religious belief in total freedom of speech.

[rtopia]

Im not going to stand and defend any american policies...only my policy.

Thanks for clarifying that - I thought that was what you meant to begin with.

My policy is, Fuck ANYBODY who thinks they can tell me what I can and cant think or say

.

the same as every free man

but anonymouse sounds just like every fearmongering American, running around screaming "I love my freedoms but I can do without a few of 'em!"

I don't think he's identified where he's yet which leads to the point of my reply....

you and anonymouse have both jumped on each other verbally over things that weren't even said - understanding what someone is really saying first is the best way to make them understand you

we have a unique oppurtunity to talk to people from everywhere and cranking up the volume will only put them off.

The reason I think this board is the perfect place for a thread like this is because we're everyday people who pretty much want the same thing "to do our thing and to be left alone to do it". Any board specifically dealing with topics like this one are usually loaded with people who have ideology recruiting agendas.

Anyone not interested can just pass it over and move on to the one about m-audio's newest controller.

I may be the only one but - I wanna hear about a countries history from it's countrymen (and all the biases that come with it).

I'm wiling to bet there's a lot of people here with a lot of interesting shit to say.

- r

ps. or maybe not

[anonymouse]

computo, I have to laugh, You are so full of righteous angry-young-man shit

anyway, I don't think it really matters, we are all full of whatever shit makes us believe we are strong and in control. I like what Europe is trying to do, it will never be as integrated as the US I hope, but next time Europe might be stronger and more co-ordinated saying NO to a needless bloody invasion of a third world country.

Your argument about freeedom of speech, so long as it does not involve "DOING" any action is ludicrous.

The most powerful weapons on the planet are words. They are used to convince you to wear the clothes you wear, buy the software you think you need and take the arrogant stance that you think is your god/allah given right.

Careless use of words is a very dangerous thing.

Those who have the luxury of freedom of expression must be responsible.

I don't want to make any really cutting, easy examples, so take something light like Ice-T a few years ago with "CopKiller". That caused uproar. Did any cops die because of it? I've no idea. But was his freedom of expression worth the risk? Was the tune that good to justify the risk that a cop might have been killed?

He was just a cheap dick looking for promo.

Anyway, you have the luxury of your freedom to think and say whatever you like. Use your voice for whatever you chose.

[rtopia]

Come on Celtic, lighten up, The Irish and the Jews built America from the ground up.

Got any links to where I could read up on that. I'm not that clued up on American History ?

You could ask me....
My great grandfather was an Irish immigrant and worked on the Eerie canal.

I bet there's someone else here who knows what their immigrant grandparents/great grandparents did.

That's one of the upsides of living in a country as young as ours (we knew someone that knew someone etc).

- r

[Celtic]

Come on Celtic, lighten up, The Irish and the Jews built America from the ground up.

Got any links to where I could read up on that. I'm not that clued up on American History ?

You could ask me....
My great grandfather was an Irish immigrant and worked on the Eerie canal.

So you can confirm it's true then. America was built solely using jewish and irish manpower/technology ?

[rtopia]

I like what Europe is trying to do, it will never be as integrated as the US I hope, but next time Europe might be stronger and more co-ordinated saying NO to a needless bloody invasion of a third world country

Europe isn't really doing anything that the US didn't do already over 200 years ago.

50 states?
A common currency?

Your argument about freeedom of speech, so long as it does not involve "DOING" any action is ludicrous.

The most powerful weapons on the planet are words. They are used to convince you to wear the clothes you wear, buy the software you think you need and take the arrogant stance that you think is your god/allah given right.

you still decide what clothes what clothes your going to buy
you still decide what software you're going to use
you can still tell someone that their religion sucks or you could ignore them

A word cannot inflict physical harm

Those who have the luxury of freedom of expression must be responsible.

Freedom is not a luxury - it's a birthright
Only responsibility is to stand against anyone who tries to take it from you

I don't want to make any really cutting, easy examples, so take something light like Ice-T a few years ago with "CopKiller". That caused uproar. Did any cops die because of it? I've no idea. But was his freedom of expression worth the risk? Was the tune that good to justify the risk that a cop might have been killed?

actually....
this is a great example

Even if cop killers didn't already exist before the song - it was something someone somewhere was thinking. The uproar was over a song that glorified the act.

Anyone who wanted to kill a cop didn't need a theme song to put them into action.

- r

[anonymouse]

I think we are all shoulder-to-shoulder here trying to hit the "We agree" button.

Except that I believe a modicum of censorhip is necessary to protect certain sensitivities, otherwise I'm right with Computo.

I understand the idea of 100% freedom of expression - but in the interests of the common good, you cannot trust people to enjoy that luxury for positive pursuits.


Anyway - let's not waste time, let's find the loop that moves a generation we are just talking shite anyway.

[rtopia]

So you can confirm it's true then. America was built solely using jewish and irish manpower/technology ?

No - not solely - and that's not what anonmymouse was saying either.

I'm saying that my Irish relatives had a hand in it, just like the immigrant Russians (who may have been Jewish), immigrant Chinese (not likely Jewish), immigrant Italians, etc.

-r

[rtopia]

Except that I believe a modicum of censorhip is necessary to protect certain sensitivities, otherwise I'm right with Computo.

Okay - but that's not what you said earlier.
You said you opposed all forms of censorship

I understand the idea of 100% freedom of expression - but in the interests of the common good, you cannot trust people to enjoy that luxury for positive pursuits.

Doing things in the name of the common good are exactly the same justifications used to defend the "Patriot Act" and the suspension of the bill of rights for the detainees in Cuba.

I have to trust people to use their freedom postively - because it's not a LUXURY.
Everyone's born that way (free) and how they use it is none of my business.

I'll trust an individual to live his own life before I'll ever trust a government to tell me how to live mine "in the name of the common good".

As long as I won't break your bones, steal your stuff and fail to pay for any damage I do to your gear - what other common good is there?

- r

[ilia]

I have to trust people to use their freedom postively - because it's not a LUXURY.

Look, we can make sweeping statements over here all we want, but the truth is that in every more-or-less sane country, including the US, people can be held legally accountable for malicious and deliberately false statements. This is why you have defamation laws (=slander and libel in the US).

[anonymouse]

rtopia, i agree with what you and computo say,

I just draw the line at advocating or glamourising a limited number of topics (ie racism, xenophobia, abuse of the weak, paedophilia, hard drugs, ownership of automatic weapons etc)

anyway, you are right - these things should not need to be censored, only morons would want to promote such topics and the rest of society should ignore them. But society is not so simple.

Such restrictions by a good government can ensure the freedom of all. Such restrictions should not affect anyone.

Anyway, this discussion is really not my bag. I'm just into common sense and good living.

[computo]

copkiller...ha. Guess I wont be listening to any of you pro-censors music.

I wonder if anyone here has seen Frank Zappa on Crossfire in 86.

talk about putting the point down.

Let me first say, that everything back and forth between me and anyone is in the spirit of debate, not anger...I think this kind of conversation is important, and occasionally really fun when passive aggresive behavior surfaces on all sides!

Any "artist" who takes the stance that censorship or content control, ceases to be an artist in my mind. reminds me of Prokofiev, who was forced to write music for his government. even in the face of the censors (who would put him to death no less) he and shoshtacovich both artistically bucked the system. Someone holds copkiller up as an example of a piece that shouldnt have made it onto the streets. Have you any idea the climate that piece was written? probably not, but lots of people were being killed by cops in the streets...unarmed people. I guess in the EU you wouldnt have this problem, but in the US the cops are basically free to do what they please, tazer people, shoot unarmed people 51 times in the doorway of their own homes, often without reprisal.

Cop Killer, (musical critique aside) was a very important song here. Now hiphop artists really CAN speak what they want. Jadakiss got some press for his 9/11 piece, but there is no doubt that Cop Killer made a HUGE difference in the forward motion of hiphop, and the freedoms of artists in the US.

You may view it as a cheap stunt, but it was a much larger artistic statement, that took a lot of guts on the parts of a LOT of people to make it happen. That may seem like easy pr, but to me it equals an extremely elaborate political statement, that in the end, illegitmized those in the public who were making the same censorship suggestions some of you are. There was a lot of outcry after, but since then lots has changed.

<anonymouse>The most powerful weapons on the planet are words. They are used to convince you to wear the clothes you wear, buy the software you think you need and take the arrogant stance that you think is your god/allah given right.

Actually, you may find money is far more powerful...i.e. you can choose to not spend your money on products made by companies that are fronts for weapons manufacturers, not buy that mcdonalds that directly supports south american slavery. If you are convinced to buy what they tell you to buy, then you have a ot to learn my friend, Words do very little. Action. Thats really all that matters. without action, theres no product to sell, no people to make it, no resources to build it. The global elite didnt get there by convincing us that we should be pleebs. They actively killed, and raped until people gave in.

<anonymouse>Anyway, you have the luxury of your freedom to think and say whatever you like.

haha, you dont!

[rtopia]

I have to trust people to use their freedom postively - because it's not a LUXURY.

Look, we can make sweeping statements over here all we want, but the truth is that in every more-or-less sane country, including the US, people can be held legally accountable for malicious and deliberately false statements. This is why you have defamation laws (=slander and libel in the US).

EXACTLY!!

There's a big difference between censorsing what someone believes vs. making a person liable for economic damage that they actually cause.

Slander and Libel are Fraud - protection from these is one of the reasons for government to exist to begin with.

How much and what kind of economic damage can be done by saying some historical event didn't happen when there's plenty of written history and evidence to prove that it did?

- r

[computo]

anonymouse, I agree.

what usually happens is these idiots use the freedom given to involutarily label themselves complete buggers, which I think is part of the good in it!