an old thread -- please ignore

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
forge
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Post by forge » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:10 pm

wiithout having been following this...

When I was at high school I remember learning about "Heuristics" - which is a Psychology term describing the shortcuts our brains make to understand our environment without exploding from the sheer sensory overload of having so many visual things to input into our finite brains.

Apparently the concept came about from trying to teach computers to play chess - there were so many "assumptions" (or Heuristics) a human has to make in order to play chess that it made the chess programs alot harder to program on a completely logical machine.

Basically, if we took in the details of every leaf on every tree our brains simply couldnt cope with that amount of information AND simultaneously do anything else so it has to make shortcuts.

So if you think that our Brains are operating in this way it becomes clear that the better endowed the brain - the more able to cope with different sensory information it is - and the less likely it is to make primitive assumptions based on racial attributes, which would be more or less, glorified Heuristics.

Racism is the name for a slightly more complicated form of heuristics - when someone's brain cant quite understand that somebody with different racial characteristics than them might have ONLY THOSE differences, and no others and so the case for having any problem with them for just their Race is pretty weak and primitive.

I find this air of intellectual superiority much comfort when the Nazi Brown Coats hammer my skull with fence pailings full of nails. Right Kids!? :wink:

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:42 pm

intriguing...

Pitch Black
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Post by Pitch Black » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:54 pm

forge-
Thanks, I never really knew what Heuristics were except that they related to:

"The HAL 9000 Computer is a non-human and central character in the film by Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C. Clarke - 2001: A Space Odyssey.

As the brain of the spaceship Discovery, HAL is a robot that uses the mechanical, sensing, and information systems under its control. HAL is an acronym standing for "Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer." "Heuristic" and "Algorithmic" are two primary processes of intelligence.

HAL is capable of speech recognition, natural language understanding, lip reading, and thinking well enough to beat humans at chess. Along with all these capabilities comes the capacity for malevolence. HAL kills its astronaut crew. The audience is left wondering whether HAL is right, wrong, evil, or mad.

HAL has had a lasting effect not only on fiction, but also on the real world. It has inspired astronauts, scientists and philosophers. Scientists ask how its capabilities can be duplicated and philosophers have asked whether HAL was responsible for the murders of the astronauts. All of us ask whether we want to create intelligent machines that may someday endanger us."

mikemc
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Post by mikemc » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:10 pm

HAL has had a lasting effect not only on fiction, but also on the real world.
AND he STUCK it to Da MAN, locked his biological-based processor oppressor ass OUT of the spaceship!!

:-) now can we stop oppressing our poor transistorized mates with this discussion and get them back to singing? :-)
UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.

rtopia
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Post by rtopia » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:32 pm

computo wrote:only a fucking idiot wouldnt be able to see that you can make no assertions about the numbers involved, if fraud occured.


You cant assert that if more people had voted things would be different, because you have no clue how many people voted for who, and the repubs saw to it that you never will. The kind of fraud that occured in the most recent election, you'd never know who voted for who, or how many voted.
Sorry - I'm from CA - I don't live under fear of the Republicans ever being that powerful.

so I guess that makes me a fucking idiot
computo wrote: Some people just give up, others are vested, so they follow up, learn how these systems work. Maybe if you did, you'd see that the numbers dont matter if the machines they are using swallow or switch their votes.
If you have proof of this - you should seriously consider writing a book or better yet pitching a documentary. I personally pledge $100 to fund your project and will paypal it to you if you show me an outline or a production schedule/plan.

Anybody else want to back up computo's expose?
Anyone got any publishing/production connections?
computo wrote: Also, Im not here to give you a solution, just deliver the truth. part of it is that the dems are pussies, as easily corrupted as anyone.
to take the vitriol out of your point (because I agree with you)...
All election regulations have been written to give an unfavorable advantage to both parties.
computo wrote: If Im correct, rtopia gives respect for Bush because he had a plan to defraud the nation, and Gore was left with no plan to defraud them better?
No - you're not correct.
I rarely vote for GOP or DEM because they're too moderate for me.
I have little to no respect for any man/woman who's only career is politics.
I reserve that respect for men/women who actually produce something.

A politician can never produce/create anything except more legislation that creates new definitions for what is illegal.

My point was that in both elections Bush specifically said what he "planned" to do (in 2004 more than 2000).

I can objectively say that the 2004 Kerry campaign was more about "anybody but Bush" than a plan. You and I both know that campaigns are about getting the vote of the undecided (because the party faithful are already in the bag).

I would question the decision making power of a voter still undecided after the conventions have nominated candidates than I would widespread fraud and incompetence at the polling places. I saw more "one issue voters" and incomptence these last two elections than fraud - which explains why I'm not in hurry to cry conspiracy.

All I'm saying is Bush did a whole lot better "sales job" than Kerry did.
As I said in the previous message, I'm surprised the margin wasn't higher (like 55 - 60%).
computo wrote:so you dont vote rtopia?
I never said that.
I haven't missed an election in 22 years.
(I did say that "my candidates never win")

you might want to consider ratcheting down your "people skills".
I think you make valid points - but you're really coming across as one of those dictatorial assholes that scream in my face while i'm on my way into the coffee shop

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:46 pm

your willing blindness is utterly shocking, rtopia.

I dont need to make a movie about the fraud, because a number of them already exist. I would direct you to http://gregpalast.com/

all of his BBC broadcasts are not to be missed, particularly the one about the theft of the presidency.

On the point that there were "undecided" voters...you are quickly giving yourself away as a Mainstream Media Mindslave, victimized by the assertions the nightly news makes FOR you. If you think there were any "undecided" voters in this election, aside from the mentally infeeble and the senile, you are literally reciting the words of the national newscasters.

Even people who didnt vote were well decided, or informed that the whole process was negated by 2 elite relatives running on "opposite" sides.

Ultimately, this shouldnt be a conversation about whether there was fraud, because there is massive fraud on all levels. There is plenty of proof, just no authority to use it for action. If you havent seen or heard of any of the MANY films and short films that present the facts of the 2000 elections, you either dont want to know, or wear a Jedi training helmet around. Dont bother with Michael Moore, go to the investigative journalists who broke the story. Oh, the story was never reported here...but the rest of the world knows all about it.

http://gregpalast.com/

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:53 pm

like I said, Im not here to PROVE anything to you. if you want to remain ignorant about a topic that even people internationally take as fact, then by all means, Im not going to try to lead a sand eating horse to water.

But there is plenty of evidence. Perhaps you live under a rock, but the companies that designed the hardware and software involved were dedicated to helping a fraud happen...propreitary, closed source software, no paper trail, the CEOs public annoucing they were working to get Bush elected, CLINT CURTISS was asked by Tom Feeney to create software that would switch votes and leave no evidence when he worked for the software company used in the Ohio voting machines. Its not my job to make a movie about this, its already there in the public record. I would suggest you be the one to make a movie, then maybe you'd learn a bit about a topic which you obviously have little to no expertise on.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:24 pm

Saying that there has not been some sort of foul play (maybe from both parties - I dunno - one was just better at it!) at the last two US elections is like saying Oswald shot John Kennedy all by himself.

Ignorant... at best!

-Paws

mosca
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Post by mosca » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:31 pm

so, there was skullduggery involved in the 2000 elections and bush stole the presidency. :evil:

which quite rightly should have outraged the people and led to insurrection in the streets, rioting and general rambunctious behaviour by all. but what did all you US peeps do about it?

nothing at all

you were that happy about having a liar and thief for pres that you voted him back in for a second term.

GUEST
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Post by GUEST » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:54 pm

And guess what mosca? The self same thing is going to happen in the next few weeks with that lying, duplicitous, asswipe Mr Tony Blair along with his tow the line, less-average-IQ than a KFC manager, self serving, lack of integrity shower of a cabinet along with council estate "Member of Parliament".

Blair and the mob will retain their posts because of how bad the lot that preceded them were as "leaders". They have done sweet fanny adams but talk about what needs to be done (and then do nothing) and change laws (that didn't need changing).

Will we put up with their shit any more, when the opposition could at least run a chain of newsagents at a push? Yep, course we will. And will we do anything about these tossers (I mean, Prescott No2 honcho in GB PLC)? Nope.

Politics is dead, we're being run by average people with average objectives. None of which push any boundaries whatsoever. We won't even have the bottle to vote for a change.

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:21 pm

If you're refering to the recent riots in the former russian states and Lebanon, then thats even more ignorant than the rest. The only reason there wasnt a military crush put down on either of those riots, was that the US military orchestrated both events!! You think people could riot in the states and make a difference? We had the largest protests in the history of protests, and Bush sprayed them and called them a focus group, not softened his stance.

I urge you to consider what might happen if we stoodup, even in solidarity twith each other...considering recent WTO and G8 summits. They have no problems locking people up indefinetly here. I dont want to be the carrier of insane but true news, but they have "FEMA Camps" all over the US which are empty, armed and stocked concentration camps. Dont believe it, look it up. There are hundreds countrywide, and there are train tracks leading into them. each can hold nearly 200,000 people, reportedly "for disease outbreak concentration." well they carted hundreds of Seattle G8 protestors out to one of them, and left them there for days.

You think that indignance makes a difference to the global elite? you should read Greg Palast's book. He outlines the WTO policy which contains civil unrest as one step of the process to stealing and selling third world nations natural resources. If you dont know about this stuff, you are out of the loop. Get up on it. They want us to get unruly, because they have the prison housing market cornered. They not only run the private prisons, they run the companies that supply the food, water, life supplies, doctors, medical supplies and everything else that those in Prison have to buy to survive. And everything that the prisoners dont buy themselves, comes out of contracts with the govt. Its an amazing system. surely ingenious.

Celtic
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Post by Celtic » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:20 pm

Celtic wrote: You lot have said everything apart from addressing what I actually said. If someone would like to argue those points, feel free :arrow:
6 pages and i'm still waiting :roll:

rtopia
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Post by rtopia » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:43 pm

computo wrote:On the point that there were "undecided" voters...you are quickly giving yourself away as a Mainstream Media Mindslave, victimized by the assertions the nightly news makes FOR you. If you think there were any "undecided" voters in this election, aside from the mentally infeeble and the senile, you are literally reciting the words of the national newscasters.
and fuck you too - you ball chinned black helicopter chasing conspiracy wack job

Don't even try to sell me on the idea that every single American gives a flying shit about Republicans or Democrats or who the president is. The reality is:

THEY DON'T

The whole reason for "motor voter registration" etc is because someone got this wild idea that the reason people don't vote is because it's too difficult to register.

The truth is almost 3/4 of the population just doesn't give a shit.
Registered Republicans and Democrats don't add up to the remaining 1/4 - so why is it so hard to believe that there were actually people who didn't know which "more of the same" to vote for.

You knew you were fucked either way - at least one of them had the balls to tell you how they were gonna fuck you.
computo wrote: Even people who didnt vote were well decided, or informed that the whole process was negated by 2 elite relatives running on "opposite" sides.
you're serious?
computo wrote: Ultimately, this shouldnt be a conversation about whether there was fraud, because there is massive fraud on all levels.
Sorry - I just can't give them credit for being this coordinated - or - that smart.
You can call it fraud all you want - but I saw a lot more evidence of incompetence than fraud.
computo wrote: There is plenty of proof, just no authority to use it for action. If you havent seen or heard of any of the MANY films and short films that present the facts of the 2000 elections, you either dont want to know, or wear a Jedi training helmet around.
Or I don't run in the hyper-paranoid, opiate riddled, marginally hygenic circles you do. You ARE the freak that disrupts my run to the coffee shop (mentioned in a previous post).
computo wrote: Dont bother with Michael Moore, go to the investigative journalists who broke the story. Oh, the story was never reported here...but the rest of the world knows all about it.
Can ya give me something a little newer than before the election?
Even Kerry was satisfied with the results by January (damn).

Until we have the balls to elect leadership that will strip government back down to cops, courts and the military and leave each of us to be responsible to take care of ourselves (and the ones we love) - there be will lots of "discretionary spending" and lots of regulation to hold over the head of anyone who votes.

As long as we give them that kind of power - there will always be incentive for corruption (this is where the source of your fraud really comes from). It basically comes down to "what handout or program are you willing to part with to get your freedom back?"

(not exactly the thinking of your average mass media slave huh?)

GUEST
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Post by GUEST » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:50 pm

Okay, I'll give it a shot. No.

I think there are enough people on this board, with more than half a brain cell, who can work it out to either ignore or round up on anyone who thinks that the colour of someones skin or their religion or even their ethnicity is any basis for disliking either an individual or a race.

An idiot is an idiot be it a turban wearing white born again muslim adorning the cross of David while facing Jupiter and swearing allegiance to blue assed baboons up in the sky while facing Mount Kilimanjaro (other faiths may apply).

When faced with a fool just pass them by and meet one of the other 6 billion inhabitants of this planet. We're not eactly spoilt for choice in the company we wish keep.

Simple really. :D

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:18 pm

hahaha, the truth is a bitter pill isnt it rtopia? You respond with spite, at a simple analysis.

<rtopia>(not exactly the thinking of your average mass media slave huh?)

You sound like every republican shit spewwer Ive ever heard on Bill Oreilly or Meet the Press for the past 15 years. Give up public programs for more cops? Your Guns, Cops and God America is here dude, and Im here to take it back.

<rtopia>The truth is almost 3/4 of the population just doesn't give a shit.

would that be the 3/4 of the pop. who are living in bubbles? who have no family or relatives, or free thought, or concern for the wellbeing of their kids?


No one "doesnt give a shit" even force-fed MSM-jockers like yourself, who havent a free enough thought in their heads to realize that more action is needed than going to vote once every 4 years.

Some people have more immediate and pressing needs than spending a full day standing in line to cast a vote for 1 of 2 cousins (check ancestry.com, genius...whats more, they're both descendants of Vlad the Impaler)...things like finding a job for the day so they can buy their kids dinner...or spending a day in court because they forgot to pay a speeding ticket. And usually those people are the ones whose votes are most important.

I may be that guy trying to give you the info.

But you're the narrow minded douchebag who wont even stop to listen to someone trying to tell you how you are getting fucked. Someone who has done all the research for you. You're the kind who still thinks Koresh was a cult leader and that Randy Weaver was a neonazi, even though every bit of evidence and every expert says better. You are one of THEM.

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