Faking 5.1 Surround with Ableton

[PLacidBasilisk]

OK, so I've got myself into a position where I'm supposed to be doing a 5.1 surround mix, but am embarrassingly under-equipped.

The project is an installation piece featuring a short film and accompanying surround soundscape. I don't have an interface with 6 outputs - I don't even have 6 speakers. I'll have access to them perhaps the day before the installation begins, so I can't really mix on them.

My plan is to rough out a surround mix using only two speakers. Is this at all possible? I know it's unadvisable but desperate times...

My plan is to set up six channels in Ableton and to the best of my ability create a rudimentary surround mix like this. On the final day I hope to transfer to surround. At this point, I hope to be able to simply flatten out each track and export them to a Logic surround project. Will this be possible? Will it be possible to do it in Ableton?

[3phase]

your quest is rather creating 5.1 content with just 2 speakers.. the daw is pretty irrelevant regading that problem..

i once created a phantastic new format.. mono surround..but than a band stole the name


its actually a mono format.. where you have one speaker in the front..and one behind you...

and than you mix from the back to the front..so there are defined movements that lead to the spaeker in front of you ..

back to front..... or front to back... as you wish..

that can actually sound pretty cool when you are able to program the wright rooms and sounds

at least you can play with that to start with..

do you have a seperate headphone out?
than you get an open headphone on..not a closed one.. or if ther is only a closed one set them half on the ears..
An additional left/right chanel !!

as add ons to the center/ back action in the real speakers... you have to calculte the ms second offset to the front speaker and delay the headphones a little bit..

so you have 4 channels now... center back in mono... and the headphones...

than you create the subwoofer channel... mix all the tracks together in mono.. cut away everything above 80 herz.. you have a rhytmical rumbeling now... add some meaningfull and very loud bass tones at significamt points... not too much.. but enough that evrybody belives that you are a great artist...

than you change the speakers.. put them both behind you..just feed them with the back channel and listen in your headphones to the L R mix you have done.. add a few stereo fx to the former back chanel that comunicate with what is going on in the headphones..not too much.. in general its ok when the 2 back channels are in mono all the time.. just some stupid pan stuff that somehow comunicates with the headphones.. less is more here.. just follow simple pattern,

now you have 6 channels.. ...


There is one other trick buts a bit difficult. quadro with one headphone.. .. you might use that to get pattern for the Back -L to Front -L and Front-R to Back-R channels.. see them as one thing..and the center and the sub as the other....
and let them comunicate with each other

you replace your speakers.. now one on the floor as sub. with highcut on 80 herz. the other in front of you.. ..

but first the quadro part..its a but difficult to describe.. you have 4 channels .. first 2 panned left....next 2 panned right..

on channel one the is a bongo hit on the one...one chanel 2 there is a bongo hit on the 2 .one ch 3 one on the 3 and on ch 4 a bongo on the 4...

And now it comes.

click on..count in

than you move your head left on the one.. right on the 2 ..left on the 3 again..right on the 4.. and so on..keep in motion

Voila..quadro... a bit limited because you dont have circles when you fill that with 16 th notes and propper fades..its rather an X action..but when you do something nice with your 2 "sub" and center speaker to fill the gaps..
can be nice.. and good for the blood circulation in the brain...
anyway..again 6 chanels..and the result sounds like nothing theese surround idiots are doing with theire joysticks..

its rather like traffic on a crossing.. cubistic movements in the suround field..

if you get rich with that please mail me privat for my paypal adress..


good luck...

[3phase]

if you think about it you might find some other tactics.. to get some surround content without having the expensiv speaker setup

I give the game the name..

*Underground Surround*

the surround of the underground

i think its time for that..we cant leave that to the rich kids.they are too boring to use all the gear anyway

[3phase]

and one more regarding the mono surround.. because i went too far in the first article...
it was initially invented to act after the kiss prinzip

keep
it
simple
stupid..


the theorie is that you create the 2 back forth mono tracks...

and afterwards you do stereo mix downs of them.. or just aplie timed stereo panners with addional sounds
its allways easy to turn mono into stereo

so one can create edgy quadro pans within the back forth action initially created...

ther is pretty much fun possible with 2 speakers.. you can have one above you and one below and do a mix for that...stereo is overrated

and so you can create moves and stems you can mix quickly together when you have the 6 speaker setup

[scientist]

a good method is to think of each sound as a mono source from the get go, so as you move from live to logic you'll be placing mono sounds in 3d space instead of mucking around trying to make stereo work across 5 speakers (the results aren't good). so, mix like normal to get your relative levels set, then export mono files (or rewire) to get them into logic and use the surround panner to move each track to where you want it in 3d space. if you have enough time with the logic setup you can even do some pan automation or use the multi tap delay to bounce the sounds around a bit. i'm less familiar with the actual playback, as all of the 5.1 work i've done has subsequently been encoded for dvd and blu ray by someone else.

[3phase]

@scientist
placing mono sounds in the surround field reminds me to the old joystick game...not really a surround composition that gives the single speakers a meaning by sound design and composition.. for electronic music that can be seen as a waste of good speakers ..because we achive a 3d soundfield in stereo pretty well allready... the movies make actually better use of the surround ability than the musicans.. just having the soundtrack in stereo the other speakers do all kind of important things

my theorie is that the speakers should be like actors within a 5.1 composition..therfore you need to get a feel for them and theire relation to each other... or create your own relation or pattern of usage..

therefore the mono surround idea.. an idea to get ideas..

how you use that ideas for soundesign and composition is another question.. maybe just to do it as you suggest..
the one way actually dont excludes the other..

a propper mix in the 3d field is anyway only possible with the complete speaker setup.. regardless of heaving stereo stems .. 6 prepared tracks for each speaker or an unknown amount of monofiles to be placed between the 6 speakers.
or somthing inbetween

the final adjustment/ ästhetical composition will have to happen on location..

[pepezabala]

3phase, your post should get added into the manual. that's a really great method!

[madlab]

3phase, that's a pack of nice and smart ideas.

[oblique strategies]

Do some searches in the Ableton forum for "quad", & "surround", & you'll see what some of us have come up with to do multi-speaker work. You may get inspired by these ideas & that may help you.

Good luck!

[nathannn]

im going to agree with the others and say them are really cool idea's 3phase.
you should make some video demonstration's of these idea's .

[3phase]

video demos?

i would prefer to do a propper surround album than looking stupid on videos...
but the labels i deal with, or better can deal with when i want, fear the costs.. they only want stereo :-/

propper mixed stereo..at least on albums.. :

but true... there is no target audience for suround techno... or clubs that even could play that...


however its fun to do sounddesigns that make use of multichannel audio... i especialy like the mixture between voice of god speaker.. a subwoofer to cool my feet and the watch my ass channel.. and some other speaker around...

to have sounds from above that comunicate with stuff around you is really the icing on the cake.. everything else is extended stereo.. 3 d audio in the sense of the word is defenetly also above and below.. and especially from above is psychological very strong.. buts thats experiments that very difficult translate to the outside world...
but i had much fun doing experiments .. i am just interrupted in a new setup.. i ve one speeker now on wheels and stopped for the mail before i get my vog channel on again.had to remove it 2 years ago when i changed the lights.. ..

would be actually great to have a few more from the ceeling... have the suround circle lifted vertically..yeah .. that must be fun.. VOG channel.. left of god..right of god cannel.. watch my ass- left....watch my ass .right.. and the sub? you sit on it )..

so if you are into surounderground. forget about all rules and just play around... if you only have 2 speakers .. no problem...and to have above and below with 2 speakers.. lower the one behind you and rise the on in front of you..or the other way around..
you do differnt sounddesigns for each situation..and that the intersting thing about it all the money boys never get, because they can afford speaker stands ..
and anyway only follow a given path with a predefined set of rules..

you know how exciting all theese surround production on the market are. . sounds good.. but would have sound good in stereo aswell.. from an artistical perspective pretty pointless if you ask me..
And allready stagnating because there is no real movement behind it...
stockhausen was allready lightyears ahead in this regard.... so like allways..the technology has to hit the streets before the wright people get theire hands on .. surround sets in the pawn shop? i gues its just has started...

so the underground is defently asked to bring some sense in the new technology .. thats is usualy the job for pioneers and not for established people with all equipment money can buy.. so be loud and proud.. your limitations are a chance..

you dont need the most expensive studio monitors to do experiments...single fullrange speakers from old radios are a great source... a cardbord box is enough for them as housing...

you allways can use the 5.1 eeky sneeky postpro ex sae student mix master to get that compatible to...home systems.. but who needs that?

it´s a total missconception, one of so many in this world, that all music done has to be recorded and sold..
that wasnt the idea behind it in the first place..

[PLacidBasilisk]

Wow. 3phase, thanks for the incredible insights and ideas. I'll be doing my best to put some of them to action. For others, it might take me a couple of days study to work out what it all means (I'm new to the surround mixing game )

I decided my best option is touse the 4 outputs I have to mix with front left, front right, back left and back right and then just wing it with the centre and sub channels. I might end up flagging the sub. It's not entirely necessary right? I mean, I'm not mixing a Michael Bay film here.

My plan is to put together 4, 5 or 6 stems which I'll then commit to audio and send in to the dude who'll convert it to surround. Will he be able to simply do it in 4 channels if that's what I decide to do or is mixing in 4 channels at this point going to cause problems further down the line?

[scientist]

you can pretty much work in quad without worry. in a normal 5.1 setup, the center channel is usually for dialogue and doesn't add much to the 3d image. you could utilize it a little more if you set up your 5 speaker equidistant. the playback system should extract low frequency info from the other tracks that it will throw at the sub, so you don't necessarily need to build a specific lfe track.

[PLacidBasilisk]

Thanks scientist, that's reassuring. I was wondering about the importance of the centre channel. The film I'm working on doesn't have any dialogou so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Still, how would you recommend I go about injecting something into the centre channel?

[scientist]

for the most part you can do whatever you want, but in terms of a proper mix just think of each speaker as its own mono mastered mix. keep your peak db at a reasonable level (e.g. logic defaults to -12db) and you'll be fine.

some examples of things i've done:
1. built a surround panner in reaktor, which basically turned the 6 speakers into a linear system. i could import a single file and 'pan' it around to the six outputs and record the results to 6 mono files. the mono files were then each played back by a single speaker in the system. i did two versions, one with the speakers set up in a circle a la a normal 5.1 set up, and also with the 5 speakers in a row installed on lightposts down an entire city block. it was really easy to get some cool effects with various sounds either spinning around the central listening point, or zooming up and down the block. you can mimic this idea using multiple sends in live, and automating the send level of the track you want to move around from speaker to speaker.
2. i've set multiple live sends with 100% wet delays set at different delay times so that a single sound source pings at different times through each send, with each send going to a different file/speaker. this results in a single sound "bouncing" around from speaker to speaker. you can do this method all within live, provided you have a multi-out interface and 4-5 monitors. however for the final performance you'll have to use the same set up. for playback without live you'll have to port to logic to export to a 5.1 compatible file.
3. what i've settled on recently (as i'm doing "real" 5.1 mixes now), is to take mono tracks from live and drop them into logic and using the surround panner to place them in space. definitely not as weird as the earlier experiments, but the novelty of the earlier stuff wore off and i'm really having fun just being able to place things in 3d space around a central listening point.