Noob in need of controller feedback from experienced users

[e-rod]

Hello all. I've been using Ableton Live since the beginning of the year and I love it. I've been slowly learning the ins and outs and have decide to get some controllers, since I'm sick of drumming and playing synths and bass with the keyboard.

I know there are many threads regarding controllers, and I have read through them already. I've narrowed it down to a few choices, and would just like to get some feedback on those setups specifically.

You should know that I mainly use Live for producing. This means that dj setups don't really work for me.

possible setup 1: APC40, LPD8, LPK25

I will probably end up getting this, but I would like to hear from people who use the apc40 and lpk25 together. I want to know if the device controls on the apc40 are enough for controlling parameters on synths and bass, not only with included instruments in Live, but also VSTs.

possible setup 2: APC40, LPD8, LPK25, Novation Nocturn/BCR2000

In case the device controls on the apc40 aren't enough, maybe one of those two controllers will make up for it. I also like the fact that I can work with lpk 25 and novation nocturn/bcr2000 without bringing out the apc40, essentially having a "modular" key controller without having to buy mpk25 or axiom pro (even though those are great controllers, it's a matter of cost and portability). In this case, I'd like to hear from people who use novation nocturn for its originally intended purpose of controlling VST parameters with automap, and also people who use bcr2000 in mackie mode.

possible setup 3: APC20, LPD8, LPK25, Novation Nocturn/BCR2000

I was just wondering if the novation nocturn/bcr2000 could substitute the knobs on the apc40 completely. If so, let me know.

possible setup 4: Mackie MCU/BCF2000, Launchpad, Novation Nocturn/BCR2000, LPD8, LPK25

I'm throwing in this setup, although right now monetary constraints don't really make it possible
However, being a noob, I don't really understand the need for motorized faders. So, basically, if someone could explain to me the advantage of having them, I would greatly appreciate it. Perhaps in the future I might upgrade if the need justifies it.

possible setup 4: ipad/iphone, anything that could complement it

I read this thread for music applications for ipad/iphone http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142347
Found it very interesting, especially the AC-7 Pro Control Surface for iPad. Looks like a cheaper version of a Mackie MCU. I don't own an iPad, but might be tempted to get it if the AC-7 works as advertised, seeing as Mackie MCU costs 2k dollars. I also own an iphone, so anyone who uses it in their setup is welcome to share their experiences.

That's basically it for now. You can check out my tunes at http://www.soundcloud.com/e-rod. Any and all advice and information is more than welcomed and appreciated.

Peace everyone.

[fishmonkey]

the advantage of motorized faders is that the faders can automatically follow the settings of whichever fader or control they are currently assigned to in the software. the same goes for endless encoders. without motorized faders/endless encoders, the faders/knobs get out of sync with the software controls, which is what all the different 'pickup' settings in the MIDI preferences are for.

if you work with automation a lot, touch-sensitive motorized faders are even better, because you can override existing automation without fighting with the fader motors.

many people these days are used to working without real faders, but having used hardware mixing desks in the past, not having real faders drives me crazy.

[e-rod]

Thanks a lot for answering.

I was not aware the lpk25 only had a two octave range. I like it because it's cheap, portable and apparently well-built.
Same goes for lpd8.

What would you recommend instead? and why? Please, let me know.
There is time to change my mind before I make the purchase

ShelLuser, I'll have to give the mpd's another look. Your logic makes sense.

fishmonkey, thank you for the explanation.

Hopefully some lpk25 and lpd8 users might offer some insight.

[e-rod]

Hey, I have another setup,

APC40, M-AUDIO Oxygen 25, MPD18

It's not much more expensive than the previous possibilities and I think it offers more.

Anyone have the Oxygen 25? Haven't found much info online. Basically, I'd like to know if it works well with Live.

Same goes for MPD18. I've read a few threads on it and the reviews are pretty mixed. I like it because it's cheap and has 16 pads. Is it really necessary for a drum controller to have knobs, especially having the apc40?

Related question: How difficult is it to configure the keyboard to play Live's drums?
If it's easy, might skip the drum controller entirely.

Please help, you can all remember what it's like to be starting out.

[exper]

Definitely APC40, and my vote for Drum controller is (seriously) get a NI Maschine. First you'll have a killer, fun VST to use in Live, and second, it can function as an awesome controller for Live. many people have built (easily I might add) templates for it to control Live's Drum Racks, Instruments, and it can even function as an APC40 Lite. The pads on it feel the best to me, and I've owned a Korg PadKontrol and a Trigger Finger in the past and these smoke those by far!

The trick is, if you don't have the $699, you have 2 options: buy used (as I did for $300) and just search for someone who didn't dig it and barely used it; or if you happen to be in school, you can get one on an educational discount for around $400

[e-rod]

exper: I did research the Maschine, and it is an impressive controller. I just can't afford it right now, particularly since I'm buying the apc40.

So, for now, the debate has been narrowed down to lpd8-lpk25 combo or mpd18-oxygen 25. APC40 is mandatory .

Anyone using those controllers? pros and cons? better options for the same money?

Please. let me know.

[JuanSOLO]

Currently my rig consists of

APC40
LPK25
KorgNano Kontrol
Novation ReMote 25 Classic
Novation ReMote SL 37
GarageKey 37

I have used a lot of other stuff, and a lot of the things I have now seem silly. Most might strongly disagree, but I feel like the APC40 is an over-rated, ugly, and ergonomically retarded controller. When I got it I was happy with it, shortly after that it became annoying that I bought one and became less satisfied. Although the APC40 has great faders, and encoders, the matrix is 5x8? Although I dont like the way the Ohm64's casing looks, the layout of the device is way better than the APC40 or 20. The APC40 also takes up more space than its worth.

The LPK25 is cool, and small. However it is no match for a GarageKey 37. The GarageKey is larger and has more keys, but super simple, and good price.

Personally I think Novation has some of the better layouts for controllers. For example with a larger Novation keyboard you have tons of knobs, butttons, 8 pads, keys, and enough room to stack a smaller controllers on top of the right hand side, like and LPK or a KorgNano something, etc.

I dont own a BCR, I decided not to get one because Bheringer stuff is notoriously shit quality. HOWEVER after seeing the BCR in action they have become extremely appealing. I like the idea of one controller thats full of knob/encoders, not to mention the top row of knobs double as buttons.

My suggestion is consider options of configuration with multiple controllers. I always thought I'd like how the APC40 communicated using the blue hand, and that 16 knobs and eight faders would be more than enough, since you could configure the device/blue hand bank style. My opinion is that this approach gets old quick, and I would rather not be switching "banks" to get to the controls I want to twist. I would rather have all controls available at all times without all that extra button pushing and getting lost in what my controls were doing.

To me it seems a combination of
LaunchPad, BCR, and Novation Keyboard would provide a more fun, and ergonomic experience without getting lost in APC40 land.
OR, the OHM64, BCR, Novation Keyboard, with the ability to add and LPK or some small control on the Novation.
There is also Monome, and other more boutique style stuff out there.

My future controller rig will consist of my GarageKey37, a DIY knob extraveganza, and a larger button matrix such as a Monome.

I like this guys rig. It's Perfect! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQU-Lrm3D8

There is also the MidiFighter, in my opinion a better drum triggering device than any Akai device, but not as nice as Machine. My only beef with Machine is the price for great pads but not much else.

[e-rod]

ShelLuser: thanks for coming back and giving me the tip for more octave range. I admit I was a little worried about that. It seems for that reason alone I should get the Oxygen 25 instead of the lpk25. MPD18 looks like a winner also, for the price and number of pads.

JuanSOLO: thanks for giving me your opinion on the apc40. I also researched the Ohm64 at first just because it's such a good looking device. However, I feel that my needs would best be served by the apc40. I am aware that 5x8 is kind of limiting, but I figure I can work around it. I prefer the apc40 mainly for the integration with Live and the general layout of the controls. I love how the faders are right below the tracks.
I do see your point of moving in banks for control of effects and devices, and maybe I should get a BCR or Nocturn just in case. Also, the Midifighter looks awesome, but it would cost a lot more than the mpd18. I'm on a budget, trying to maximize control and minimize cost.

Any users of the BCR or Nocturn want to share their experiences?
Any apc40 users who feel they could use another controller to complement effects and device controls?
Please, let me know.

[djsynchro]

apc40 is rubbish - move 3 faders and experience a firmware bug

[e-rod]

ShelLuser: everything you've said so far has been very useful, thanks again
Launchpad is a cool device, but apc40 seems like a better fit for me. I think it's best suited for djs. But who knows? maybe in the future I might also need one for clip launching.

djsynchro: Check this video out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHg9-PcdVcI
This guy isn't having firmware bugs . That vid is an inspiration for me.
But if you think the apc40 is rubbish, could you propose an alternative setup? I would appreciate it .

[humnumb]

No need for APC40.
Maschine + iPad (LiveControl) is all you need.

[Pasha]

Sorry to join late.

I use BCF2000, Launchpad, LPD8

I'm a fan of touch faders, so I have a BCF2000 (in MCU Mode) for all the mixing needs.
A Launchpad for composing needs and an LPD8 for velocity sensitive drums & Rack Macro Controls
as well as chord player. The total expense is less than the ones you proposed and IMHO gives more.
The BCF2000 takes a little less space than APC40 on the left side, the LPD8 stands nicely below or above my iMac Keyboard
and the Launchpad on the right. Of course if you prefer a more compact setup you go APC40 and forget the motorized faders.

- my 2 cents
- Best
- Pasha

[e-rod]

humnumb: first vote for iPad, interesting. I did some research on LiveControl and found it to be very impressive. That's why i suggested it as an option. The combination of LiveControl and Maschine is very promising. Add a keyboard and you're pretty much set. However, the total cost of ownership of that setup is beyond my budget right now. Good call, though.

Pasha: thank you for answering. I wanted some feedback from a BCF2000/launchpad user.
I've read about the BCF2000 in MCU mode in the forum, and some threads comparing it to the apc40. I remember that the biggest problem people have with the apc40 are the "jumps" you get when your fader value and the track value don't match on pan or volume. I also read that apc40 has two ways of dealing with it: options for pickup and value scaling in takeover mode. Is the BCF2000 really better in that respect? I ask because I also read that the integration of BCF2000 with Live is not as tight as the apc40, even in Mackie mode. I also read that build quality of BCF2000 is not very good. Would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.
I think the only thing I like about the apc40 that the BCF2000/Launchpad combination doesn't have is the red grid that you can move around and the apc40 automatically controls whatever is inside it. So, maybe, takeover mode is worth putting up with for this reason.
Do you disagree Pasha?
Any other BCF2000 users, please give me your opinion.

And again, many thank to those who have already posted .

edit: Pasha, please tell me more about your experience with the lpd8. Do you ever feel that having eight pads is not enough for Live's drums?

[fishmonkey]

I'm a fan of touch faders, so I have a BCF2000 (in MCU Mode) for all the mixing needs.

i don't think this is what Pasha meant, but to be clear, the BCF2000 faders are not touch-sensitive.

[Pasha]

I'm a fan of touch faders, so I have a BCF2000 (in MCU Mode) for all the mixing needs.

i don't think this is what Pasha meant, but to be clear, the BCF2000 faders are not touch-sensitive.

You are right! I was thinking 'motorized faders' and wrote 'touch faders'.
This is subliminal.. knowing that BCF2000 faders are not touch-sensitive
I put in evidence something I wish it had... Sorry!!!!