How to loop automation envelopes?

[TomSwirly]

Perhaps there's something wrong with my whole workflow, but I'm unable to loop automation envelopes.

I have a looping bassline - very simple. I recorded a controller track into this which I wish to loop with it.

Well, I can't seem to do it. I can't seem to get the controller into the MIDI clip - I can only record it into the arrangement window but then I can't loop that.

And I don't really want the controller in the arrangement window. What I really want is a single MIDI clip that has both the simple bassline and the simple controller loop looping together, forever. Should be easy... right?

[Warrior Bob]

Actually, you can loop things from Arrangement - select the range you want to loop, and drag it into Session View (hit tab while dragging).

You can also program in automation into clips, which can loop just like the midi/audio clips. Click the little "e" in the lower left corner in clip view and check it out. You can have the automation loop be linked to the clip loop or a different length, even. It's kinda cool.

Hope this helps!

[TomSwirly]

Oh, I didn't know you could drag clips from one view to the other! Nice!

Both excellent pieces of advice but unfortunately neither seem to solve my issue.

When I drag the clip and controller data from Arrangement into the Clip view, the controller track I recorded does not seem to come with it. I can see it, I have it selected, it just doesn't appear in the new Clip in the Clip window.

And there doesn't seem to be a way to record controller information into a Clip in the Clip view... I can draw a controller but that isn't really what I want to do...

Thanks for the reply, though! I'm getting closer, and this is good stuff to know.

[[nis]]

Hi,

it is currently not possible to record automation data into Session View. In Session View you can only use clip envelopes, which are nothing else than modulation sources for selected device parameters. There are however two workarounds:

1. Record an automation into the Arrangement, copy the automation envelope and paste it into the respective clip envelope in the Session View clip. Note that this also requires to set the device parameter to the correct value, because clip envelopes will affect the relative parameter value.

2. Use so called 'dummy clips': If you don't MIDI-map the CC data of your controller directly on Live's device parameters, but rather feed them through another MIDI track first and then loop them back into Live's remote input, you could record the CC data into a MIDI clip (i.e. a 'dummy clip') which then controls your device parameters. Therefore you either need to wire a MIDI cable from your MIDI interface's MIDI output back into an input or even better: use a virtual MIDI port, such as the IAC bus on Mac OS X or "MidiYoke" (www.midiox.com/myoke.htm) on a Windows PC. Set up Live's MIDI/SYNC preferences like this:

INPUT (virtual MIDI port): TRACK=OFF, SYNC=OFF, REMOTE=ON
OUTPUT (virtual MIDI port): TRACK=ON, SYNC=OFF, REMOTE=OFF

Also deactivate the REMOTE button on your MIDI controller's INPUT port (because you will no longer map the MIDI messages directly), but enable the TRACK button instead, so that you can send the controller's MIDI messages into a MIDI track.

Now set up a new MIDI track, select your controller's MIDI port in the MIDI FROM chooser. Set the MIDI TO chooser to the virtual MIDI port, set the track's MONITOR switch to AUTO and arm the track for recording.

Any MIDI data that your track receives will now be forwarded to the virtual MIDI port, which loops them back into Live's remote input (remember: we activated the REMOTE button on the virtual port's input), so you can MIDI-map them on the desired parameter. Eventually record a new MIDI clip into your dummy track and then play the recorded clip. As the clip contains your CC data, it will forward them to the virtual MIDI port and thus remote-controls the mapped parameter.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Nico

[TomSwirly]

Hello, Nico, thanks for replying!

1. Record an automation into the Arrangement, copy the automation envelope and paste it into the respective clip envelope in the Session View clip. Note that this also requires to set the device parameter to the correct value, because clip envelopes will affect the relative parameter value.

This is the nub of my issue, because this is what I'm trying to do, and not succeeding. Here's what I do...

1. I record the automation into the Arrangement, let's say it's "pan".
2. I can see the pan recording displayed in Arrangement.
3. I select it. The Copy command is enabled in the Edit menu. I copy it. Now Paste is enabled.
4. There are now two ways I can go and edit a Clip - I can go to Clip View from the Arrangement window, or from the Session View.
5. In neither case is "Paste" enabled, nor does pressing Command-V do anything.
6. I can even draw pan data in that existing clip if I like, but can't paste.

It seems as if the sort of controllers I have in step 5 are somehow "Ableton" controllers, but the sorts of controllers I'm copying in step 3 are "MIDI" flavoured... or something...

[virtual MIDI port]

Oh, this is a very interesting technique (feeding MIDI back through the top again) - one that actually solves many issues that I have in general!

For example, in Max For Live I'm always wanting to do something like "Click a loop button", which I couldn't do before this.

Have you thought of simply creating a special internal "feedback" MIDI output for this very purpose? It'd avoid the cross-process calls, which I believe are quite expensive for the CPU...

I'll play with this more and report back.

[[nis]]

3. I select it. The Copy command is enabled in the Edit menu. I copy it. Now Paste is enabled.

You need to select "copy envelope" instead of "copy".

It seems as if the sort of controllers I have in step 5 are somehow "Ableton" controllers, but the sorts of controllers I'm copying in step 3 are "MIDI" flavoured... or something...

The big difference is that the envelope at step 3 is an (absolute) AUTOMATION ENVELOPE, whereas the envelope at step 5 is a (relative) CLIP ENVELOPE, i.e. a modulation source to modulate the respective parameter. Automations are only available in Arrangement View, whereas clip envelopes are available in both, Session and Arrange View.

Have you thought of simply creating a special internal "feedback" MIDI output for this very purpose?

Well, the ideal solution would be the possibility to record automation data directly into Session View. This might be possible one day, but it's quite a big story which requires lots of changes in the entire automation engine, so I wouldn't expect a solution anytime soon.

Best,
Nico

[TomSwirly]

Aha!

Thanks so much for the solution, and also the explanation. I'd seen Clip vs. Automation Envelope but it hadn't trickled into my brain.

I'm really enjoying Live for many things, though finding it frustrating for others. If I had to summarize, I'd say that Live is great for Live performance but challenging for classic "songwriting". As a programmer, Max For Live is my killer app (and since using Javascript inside Max For Live works very well, I no longer have to use the mouse to do fancy things!)

Unfortunately, it's hard for one sequencer (or whatever we call these programs these days) to do everything for everyone, and because there's such a time and money investment in your sequencer everyone suffers from the Golden hammer issue.

If you're around New York City, I'll be performing using Live tonight at Surreal Estate in Bushwick, Brooklyn so you can see the results.

[Syncretia]

So, is it fair to say that we literally need to copy and paste automation data for every part of the song where said data repeats itself? Holy @#$#!

I'm new to Ableton but if that's the case, it's going to be a serious problem for me. I have a base line that goes over 4 bars. I'm automating a low pass filter up and down in an arc during those 4 bars. Those 4 bars need to be repeated throughout the song.

What you are saying is that I can loop the notes for the entire song, but I have to manually copy and paste the automation data? If this is the case, this is certainly an area where Logic makes more sense. In Logic you can select automation and move it "inside the region". That region can then be looped indefinitely including the automation data.

Love the Golden Hammer analogy.

[Syncretia]

Ah! I think the penny just dropped. After re-reading and experimenting I think I've figured it out. You an actually store automation data in the clip, and that automation data can be looped but you have to unlink it from the region. That makes so much more sense. Actually, if I'm correct, it's cleared up all my main issues with Ableton. But, let's see if that is the case. Anyway, here's a moron's guide to looping automation envelopes:

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The key here is to understand the difference between Region Automation Envelopes and Clip Automation Envelopes. There is a big difference! You wouldn't notice it when you first open up Ableton. Clips appear in your session view and properties of those clips can be edited there (including automation envelopes). You can then copy these clips to the arrangement by going to the arrangement view and pasting them in. The clips literally get copied and pasted in to the arrangent and retain their automation envelopes. However, the confusing thing is that these clips now also have Region Automation Envelopes. These envelopes are the ones that you can see along the timeline in the arrangement view. However, it seems these can't be automatically looped. To automatically loop an automation envelope, you have you loop the Clip Automation Envelope. Here's one way to do it:

1) Create your melody in by recording a midi track from your keyboard or manually adding the notes
2) Cut the recorded region from your arrangement and paste it in to a Session clip cell
3) Select the cell in Session View
4) In the bottom left hand corner click the "E" button. Make sure it is yellow (next to "L" and the musical note in the "Clip" box)
5) In the top left of the "Envelope" box, select the parameter you want to automate from the drop down lists.
6) Make sure the Region/Loop toggle button is set to "Unlinked" and the "Loop" button is enabled (very important)
7) Edit the automation envelope in the window on the right
Now copy and paste the clip from the Session View, in to your arrangement
9) Ensure there are no Region Automation Envelopes along the arrangement timeline for the parameter you want to automate

Now, if you loop the clip along the timeline, the automation will be tied to the clip all the way along the timeline without the need for copy/paste.

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