Ableton - Death of the DJ

[Sly One]

The temptation, when mixing comes easily (either because you're really good at it, or because you've got software that's really good at it) is to do pointlessly long mixes, even though the the keys of the two tunes are hopelessly clashing. In the real world, the mixes that can sometimes have the biggest impact (and thus the ones chosen best, and with the most creativity) are done and dusted in a few seconds. *bam*.

And in my humble opinion, it takes *years* to get to the point where you can understand and work with a crowd on an instinctive level... rather than just say you can.

Quite honestly, I don't give a toss what tool anyone is using - if they play the right tunes in the right order, if they have the musical nouse to know how to transition sensitively based on what they're playing, know when to use tricks (and when not to), and aren't an arrogant bastard... they're a good DJ.

The people whose skills are devalued by a mere tool like Live just need to up their game.

[anonymouse]

Unfortunatley now : anyone who has bought a PC magazine in the last 5 years has tried their hand at a soft synth or sequencer package. Some of those apps are designed to make music out of the box .. EG GarageBand.
People in general are less impressed by electronic music. The idea that you just press go has been compounded by apps that really do function like that .
Press 'psy trance' to start. It is hard for a layman to distinguish between a track that has taken me 6 months to finish and 3 loops of session musicians off a loop cd. Some people say that is good. To me it is the end of an era.


I was chatting with a friend of mine this week, he is in a BIIIIG and most famous/succesful electronic act. I was chatting about doing more live stuff, music in general ... his response was to focus on my classical instruments , IE not the electronics.
It has no value among musicians any more, there are just too many of us - we are devalued. With the public too.

when I started doing this in 1985 ... I was one in a million (perhaps more) who could do what I did.
Everyone else was entertained

now I feel like one in 10 that can make an electronic noise!
everyone is politely interested, yet I am still as godlike as ever

I can't agree with you at all. (particularly on People in general are less impressed by electronic music) Just because the instruments have become cheap and abundant (like electric guitars in the 1960s) doesn't mean every man and his dog is capable of making anything even vaguely talented.

The barriers to entry of the world of production have dropped low. Any hamfisted curious monkey can press a few buttons these days and produce something that sounds "professional" ... to their mother.

But listen to what people are producing!

There are a few good tracks out there on unsigned home-producer's websites, but there is a huge amount of absolutely worthless copycat crap and drivel.

Just to pick on one supersaturated genre, trance for example. It is laughable, to the point of tears, how seriously some people are still taking themselves as formula trance music producers. The same 4 kick beat, hi-hat unch-unch-unch-unch, song structure, drop in some pads, build, rise and fall, hammer down bassline to the beat etc etc. It has already been overdone 10 years ago, and yet they still can't recognise the futility of the creative trap they have found themselves in. It is meaningless and instantly disposable.

What is frustrating about this is that so many people are not even trying to do more with the amazing technology they now have. Stuck in a rutt, perhaps due to lack of imagination, they can't manage to invent anything fresh for themselves.

The industry for selling expensive software and equipment to fantasy home-studio producers is booming. But there is not a proportional amount of new talent emerging.

Despite the apparent competition of thousands, it is even more interesting now to be involved in music production. Those that do make a success of it, deserve to make it more than ever before.

Knowing how difficult it is to really create something worthwhile is what drives most of us forward, that are really driven to get that album together or releasing that perfect single. If it was so easy to create something good, many people would abandon this as being boring and unsatisfying. But it is not easy.

Maybe 10 years ago, if you happened to know technology and have access to very expensive gear, talent and imagination was not really necessary. A lot of lucky talentless gits happened to be in the right place at the right time in the 80s and early 90s and get their hands on a drum machine, a synth and sampler. Some of them are still classed as "legends" today; but I wonder how they would fare if they were starting out today and couldn't hide behind their prohibitively expensive equipment as their sole attribute.

The good thing about today is that it is a true meritocracy. Anyone can buy and learn Live, Cubase, VSTs, Reaktor etc etc. But very few people really are capable of emerging from the crowd.

Many of us make our own music purely for our own enjoyment. Vast numbers of Live users use Live not to perform, or even really fully compose complete pieces. But instead just to mess around with music and relax.

For those that really want it, 1 in a 1000 may break through into some kind of commercial or artistic recognition, but they will have had to do something very special to get there; a shrewd talent to produce what the people currently want and the know-how and insight to market it.

Being able to set up shop on the internet with a nice website and the ability for people to paypal you a few dollars for your latest album is something to be very excited about. iPodism is destroying people's interest in what they thought was their favourite CD collection. New music is needed more than ever. It takes real imagination and talent to achieve it, but the future is bright. The challenge of producing something that boldly emerges from the noise of copycat electronica is not so difficult. The marketplace is enormous.

Anyone can load up some loops, add some effects, edit and tweak etc. You may even have a knack for coming up with something that sounds good. The net is saturated with mediocre copycat electronica, the worthless common direction of the herd.

That some follow the herd and dedicate themselves to glitch, trance or breakbeat, for example, is inanely narrow and unoriginal. Such a lack of imagination in adhering to those hackneyed done-to-death styles can only mean you don't have what it takes to innovate in the first place. You may be the type who will buy a specific new VST "because now I can make the Au Techre drums"! I mean, what is the point in that?

People in general are less impressed by electronic music.

I don't think I even need to explain why this is one of the most naive comments I've ever read.

The Beatles audition for Dick Rowe, head of Decca in London, by performing basically their entire club act of some twenty songs. They're turned down, a few days later, with Rowe delivering one of the most wrongheaded statements in recording history: "Guitar groups are on the way out, Mr. Epstein."

I think some people thought they could buy their way into success as a DJ, producer etc purely by buying the equipment and learning a few tricks. Now they are realising it is a lot more difficult than that. It used to work, just as Angstrom says.

Surely it is better these days when access to powerful technology is so easy? It makes it so much more impressive and enjoyable to discover real talent.

Ahh is great to rant

I just hate defeatism; people who bought all the equipment and software and suddenly realise that actual talent is required.

Likewise, owning decks, vinyl and a subscription to "what's cool this week buzzchart magazine" does not make a good DJ. Actual talent (and gritty determination) is mandatory.

[Sly One]

Of course, all that misses the point of dance music, which is that it's written to be fun to dance to, not for a chinstroker to write magazine reviews about. Go to your basic meat-market disco and they're dancing to the Bee Gees, not Aphex Twin. Go to a club where they're playing "disposable" trance or breakbeat and they're going for it like there's no tomorrow. Go to a club that's playing really innovative and experimental electronica and... oh. They're kind of... rocking from side to side or... er... nodding their heads. Cool.

I like to see boundaries broken and get excited about new ideas as much as the next man, but to go to the extent of rubbishing the creative work of many talented artists simply because they choose to operate within the deliberately narrow confines of the scene, market and people that they know is to forget that most dance music doesn't get written as some sort of mystical expression - it gets written because the person writing it is getting excited about the they envisage the crowd reacting to it. Is it any surprise that it's going to be derivative of that person's own experiences?

[AndrewDuke]

DJing never was the most skilled of trades with the exception of turntablists, what seperates a good dj from bad to me is their choice in music and picking a set ie. a selector. Soon there will be no DJ's (or if there is they will be old skool) only selectors.

I don't expect it will be long before a program will come along where you load your tracks and leave it to it... beat match, mix, filter, find best sequence, add fx etc. basically do all the technical stuff.

DJ's, learn to dance.

You can make software mix and beat mix for you, but you can't make software pick good songs over bad and program them in the best way flow-wise, so I think DJs will continue as long as they have programming skills and know how to choose good material. andrew

[MrYellow]

The challenge of producing something that boldly emerges from the noise
of copycat electronica is not so difficult. The marketplace is enormous.

Well said.... This is the main thing that concerns me all the time. It's easy
to make it sound right, or even good, or even awesome. However is it new?
Does it go somewhere different?

Any of us could make 4-on-the-floor trance mixes tomorrow with a few
effects a step sequencer and a some 303 sounds..... but it'd just be crap
no matter how good it sounded

You get your computer setup together, you marry different software
together, find a production flow that suits you, practice, find tricks to
making effects work differently, learn your synths and how to get the most
out of them..... Then you come to being original and making new music.....
It's the part that can really stop you in your tracks.

For ages I didn't listen to any electronic music, even the kind of stuff I like.
I'd only listen to my jazz stuff..... but I found it was getting depressing
cause I couldn't bring that level of instrumental virtuosity into a style that
worked in an electronic music format. So I searched out some DnB stuff
and started looking around at what others were doing..... probably a big
mistake.... now I'm doing basslines that sound the same, a year ago my
basslines were different, more musical, longer and groovier.... they were
fresh.... I was getting to the point recently where I found myself making
tracks that sound the same each day..... So decided to break that again....
no more looking at what others are doing.... back to having my different
influences.... back to not being able to talk to techno types who know what
all the genre names are .... back to not knowing the artists and tracks
the DJs are playing, just enjoying it in the moment.

Back to working from my somewhat unique influences on into the future
with a fresh new sound. Maybe the DnB kids won't get it, maybe the jazz
kids won't get it.... but if I put the time and energy into creating something
I love.... others are sure to hear it!

In short.... If you have non-electronic influences, are an outsider, and have
something new to bring, something to say.... It takes time to figure out
what works in an electronic setting and what doesn't.... but that doesn't
mean you resort to trying to fit into a genre or structuring your stuff how
others do.

-Ben

[anonymouse]

I just picked dance as an example, it can equally be said of glitch or chillout etc. Genres done to death.

So it is surprising that people want to devote their creative talents to mimickry of others - despite that the technology they now have at their disposal will allow them to do anything they can possibly imagine.


... and I am not trying to be negative, quite the opposite.

Anyone who cares a lot about creating music has probably struggled in the past to understand why they hell they are so nuts about doing it
But lately, despite the market being so swamped with technology and armies of hopefuls trying their hand at music production, the future for all of this is going to be very enjoyable for those that are really in it for the long term. (that is the original point of "electronic music is dead" that i refute)

And maybe I am talking more about chinstroking stuff here, maybe not. But from a commercial point of view, the vast masses of regular people out there who have recently become MP3 player owners are getting disappointed and hungry. Their favourite music now bores them, now that they have such easy access to it. But these probably non-techie people for the first time are experimenting with music downloading (and a lot of them are happy to pay for it)

So, what I am saying is, this is the dawn of creative electronica. There are no limits to what can be created. Stick with whatever you are doing. It'll be some achievement to get yourself recognised for what you do. But not impossible, if you employ your talent and strive for distinction. There is a massive market about to open for the little people to get their work exposed.

But don't get lost along the way making easy copycat drivel. It might sound like fun as you get high on your own loops, but it really is just wanking around. Only the innovators will have the edge to distinguish themselves.

[leisuremuffin]

currently listening to " White Noise - An Electric Storm"

now that's music!.

Awesome record!


you like united states of america, too? little bit less extreme, but still pretty awesome and in a similar vain...


-lm

[MrYellow]

because they choose to operate within the deliberately narrow confines of
the scene, market and people that they know is to forget that most dance
music doesn't get written as some sort of mystical expression - it gets
written because the person writing it is getting excited about the they
envisage the crowd reacting to it. Is it any surprise that it's going to be
derivative of that person's own experiences?

Yeah that's the trap I fell into.... I started thinking bout venues for this new
project, and how it has to fit into some kinda genre or the crowd won't "get
it"...... but..... I felt trapped.... and if it's cool, ppl will "get it" even if it isn't
the same as everything else they hear at that venue week in week out.

Think the sad thing isn't so much "that person's own experience" but when
people start producing in an electronic way and all of a sudden forget all
they've learnt from other styles of music just so they can fit in with
everyone else doing electronic stuff.

Screw them....
They can stay within their small world.... or they can try something new....
If they like it they'll ask for more.... if not they won't be at the next gig, but
the following will grow.....
-Ben

[Angstrom]

You seems to be ranting against me, yet using some arguments that I use myself. Namely

Any hamfisted curious monkey can press a few buttons these days and produce something that sounds "professional" ... to their mother.

there is a huge amount of absolutely worthless copycat crap and drivel.

Anyone can load up some loops, add some effects, edit and tweak etc. You may even have a knack for coming up with something that sounds good. The net is saturated with mediocre copycat electronica, the worthless common direction of the herd.

I just hate defeatism; people who bought all the equipment and software and suddenly realise that actual talent is required.

well that last one seems to imply that I am talentless, which is very nice of you I'm sure.

Your quotes above seem to indicate that you think there is a hell of a lot of mediocre electronic music and musicians about .

My post basically stated that I think there are too many mediocre electronic music and musicians about for the market.

you decide this makes me overpriveliged, talentless and naive. Despite re-iterating the majority of what I said.

I think there are more psytrance/techno bedroom button pushers than there were ever guitar acts in the beatles day.

so fuck you

[anonymouse]

so fuck you

not at all Angstrom. I really wasn't directing negativity at you personally. I was being general. I take a more optimistic view on where electronic music will go in the future.

As you point out, we do agree on a lot of things.

Nice use of language though. You seem sophisticated.

[supster]

Just because the instruments have become cheap and abundant (like electric guitars in the 1960s) doesn't mean every man and his dog is capable of making anything even vaguely talented.

werd.

also, excellent points about writing specifically to a genre - formula trance, breaks, progressive - as opposed to branching out, cross pollinating and creating something fresh on your own.

yes - dance music is meant to be fun - no, it doesnt have to be an esoteric journey into something people cant relate to but .. originality is worthy of respect, and often gets you noticed wheras formula writing will get you lost in the heard these days imo.

as far as DJing:

within about 2 - 3 years the time is coming where you are not going to be able to get up in front of a dancefloor with a laptop and earn any kind of props unless you are doing something really special

because, by that time half of the people in your audience will own DJ / remixing software and will have a good idea of what you're doing

because the options for mixing and creativity have expanded exponentially, then expectations will expand right along with them.

if you cheeze it, people will know. if not, it will be your creativity and sense of 'what works' . along with your original sound ... those are the things that will make the difference.
.

[drush]

DJing never was the most skilled of trades with the exception of turntablists

that is a gigantic load of bunk.


but anyway. someone on the board recently said something about looking forward to when we quit using the term DJ. i'm glad discussions like this are happening, but realize it's not just whether or not you play other artist's or your own productions with a computer or a record -- the whole landscape is changing. for a few years now i've been really excited about the day when the distinction between "dj set" and "live pa" disappears. it's just someone presenting music. hopefully in their own style, with intent to entertain or otherwise effect an audience. all this posturing about how they do it is silly.


rhetorical question, but -- someone here said FS/Serato are making ~traditional djing easier. huh? those systems, especially FS, require they exact same skillset as playing 'normal' records. it's just the media source that's gotten more efficient.

[dCross]

because, by that time half of the people in your audience will own DJ / remixing software and will have a good idea of what you're doing

because the options for mixing and creativity have expanded exponentially, then expectations will expand right along with them.

I agree with the rise, but I dunno about half - there are a lot of people out there who just want to enjoy the music, and not think about how it's coming out.

[Pitch Black]

A few random thoughts, that I suppose all hover in the background for me informing my credo:

1. It is far, far easier to become a good, even excellent, musician than it is to become a good composer. (substitute "DJ" and "Producer" if you wish) There have always been many more good musicians out there than music writers. Once you have the technical proficency down it becomes all about the INTERNAL journey. Which I believe is the exact same journey taken by anyone who is good at what they do - tennis players, CEO's, formula one racing drivers, you name it.

2a. Anybody can now sound as just good as [insert your biggest name, most favourite artist here] FOR ABOUT EIGHT BARS.

2b. When everyone can sound good, sounding good isn't enough anymore and we can get back to what matters.

3. There are as many ways of listening to music as there are ways of making it. To some people music is where they get all their philosophy and wisdom from, and to some people its just a nice noise as they do the dishes. I take this as the self-evident truth that no music is right or wrong - it just is.

4. "All genres of music become parodies of themselves just before they die."

5. There will always be a 20-year nostalgia cycle.

6. There will always be a flavour of the month, you just gotta keep doing what you do. You and the public taste will intersect eventually. (Hopefully while you are still alive . . .)

7. Q: Sensei, How do I make the perfect music?
A: Live the perfect life and make music naturally.


one love
p

[supster]

dunno about half - there are a lot of people out there who just want to enjoy the music, and not think about how it's coming out.

well, ok not literally *half* - but its a lot. even now when you spin vinyl .. especially progressive or trance .. what % of people on the typical dancefloor are either DJs or bedroom DJs or wannabe DJs that watch thier friends and know basically whats going on?

alot is my point. theres not that much mystery in it anymore. so, DJs that have great beatmatching / phrasing / timing are recognized for that. those that dont, are also recognized for it

i guess my point is it will be the same for digital, only its a lot cheaper (and lazier) to get a copy of tracktor or live, so even more people will be able to hear that your doing something really cool with it, or no.

on the other hand: plenty of people are going to try Live, and give up and not take it nearly to the level lots of us on this forum are taking it. because they find out its not as easy as they thought it would be
.