Anyone seriously use arrangement?

[barbarism]

* Just a quick couple things: you can fade in and out individual clips using crossfades, there's just no "cross" to it. Enable fades and pull in on the handle, set the curve how you like it.

Ah, you're right. I never noticed that. Thanks. That is helpful.


Aliased regions are a plague, haha, don't wish that crap upon us.
Plague? Come on. Implemented well they could could be huge. Alias by default when you copy, then right click on any alias and say "Stamp Alias" and bam, it makes a clone of the alias in place. So your workflow in the early sketch stages would be, make a 2 bar clip. Alias, alias, alias, alias in a bunch of sections. Arrange other stuff. Want to change some bits only in a few sections. Right click on that alias, stamp it, make changes to just that clip, you're on your way. Now you want to go back and add some additional depth to that part, go open your master clip, layer in some additional notes and great, it's reflected everywhere except for the clip that you stamped out.

Using the IAC bus or the like along with MIDI mapping, you can very easily trigger session clips from the arrangement. Since the triggering can be quantized to start of bar, the IAC bus timing is no problem in this case.
That's actually pretty interesting. I never thought about doing that. Kind of dummy arrangement tracks firing IAC, routed back into midi map in Live firing off session clips. Definitely would like to see this directly handling within Live in some sort of elegant way.


The moving of automation with clips in the arrangement view is absolutely predictable and consistent AFAIK. I use this all the time. If the lock icon is off, then copy/paste picks up the automation along with the audio. If on, then it leaves the automation alone. If you want just automation and no audio, there is a modified copy key command to copy the currently visible automation, but the easiest thing is to open up new lanes for what you want to copy and paste.

Again, I never noticed that lock up there. That changes it completely. Makes it far far better then I thought it was. Thanks.


for me, live is for live only once i found reaper, which has everything OP lists
I've been thinking of giving Reaper a shot as well. No session though. Looks like Sonar 7 (Win only) is getting into a session type workflow.



Has anyone heard anything re: Live 9?

[MPGK]

I usually gather ideas in Session view and I plan to do more live stuff with it.

For production and mixing, it's Arrangement view. Anything from 5 to 50+ tracks. I mostly do film and video game music and my Synthrock project.
I understand your objections, though. There's still a lot to do if the Abes want to compete with other DAWs when it comes to linear arrangement work.

[barbarism]

Well, Reaper was an install demo...and...uninstall. It feels like its price.

[justin]

WRT to the alias clips feature, here's my workaround:

when u loop a clip in arrangement that is say 2 bars long over a duration of 8 bars, and say u want to introduce a variation on the last 2 bars (of the 8 ). i use the consolidate clip function (apple+J shortcut). This really works well for MIDI, cos it just creates a new clip for the last 2 bars that u can just edit without effecting the previous loop. it works a bit like the "convert alias to real copies" function in Logic.

however it doesn't work out so well for audio cos consolidate does a normalize - i personally think there should be an option for turning that off. i know it sets the clip volume to compensate for gain change but its still seems like an unnecessary process (if i wanted to normalize i would do it myself).

[Rave]

Arrangement and I have a fun relationship, we are always laughing and joking. Good olde 'arrangey' - friend for life

[MPGK]

Arrangement and I have a fun relationship, we are always laughing and joking. Good olde 'arrangey' - friend for life

[lolalola]

for me, live is for live only once i found reaper, which has everything OP lists, plus super easy routing, plus entirely customizable shortcuts, plus it's more stable and easier on cpu, plus... wait, i'd better shut up

errrr, Reaper, eh? I've been hearing things. I know I'll get shot for this, but how does it compare to Live for recording? (I don't need Live for "live", simply for composing songs, structuring them, and I ONLY use arrangement view)

[luddy]

Aliased regions are a plague, haha, don't wish that crap upon us.
Plague? Come on. Implemented well they could could be huge. Alias by default when you copy, then right click on any alias and say "Stamp Alias" and bam, it makes a clone of the alias in place. So your workflow in the early sketch stages would be, make a 2 bar clip. Alias, alias, alias, alias in a bunch of sections. Arrange other stuff. Want to change some bits only in a few sections. Right click on that alias, stamp it, make changes to just that clip, you're on your way. Now you want to go back and add some additional depth to that part, go open your master clip, layer in some additional notes and great, it's reflected everywhere except for the clip that you stamped out.

haha, yeah, I've used Logic for years, so I'm familiar with what you get from region aliases there. I've come to prefer the leaner and simpler model that Live offers over (what I see as) the feature-ism of Logic. Probably a taste thing. I'd rather copy & paste clips here and there than to have to worry that when I change a clip in one spot it will affect other clips in the arrangement, which is the downside of aliases.

-Luddy

[clank72]

I only use Arrangement view. I do ambient and experimental. I really don't depend on loops.

Session view is like greek to me. If you are a "loopster" then I wouldn't force yourself to use arrangement.

[clank72]

Another plug for Session View.
Arrangement is OK and has a few nice touches for moving bits around, but as an owner of DP and Logic, it's far less flexible than those two in linear sequencing ability.
I have no idea why anyone would use Live if all they wanted was a linear sequencer? No disrespect, but automation for one is far less flexible than Digital Performer or Logic, there are no folders like in Logic, or no Chunks like in DP, no SysEx, no Event editor, no comping or take folders, audio editing is eh? unique shall we say in Live. <-- that's just a short list, but IMO for linear editing and arranging Live is only OK, not great.
Live shines in it's Mixer and it's Session View. The audio and MIDI routing in Live is top tier, better than DP and Logic even, and Session View is IMO so much better than the traditional looping of a part in the arrangement for working on a part.

Weird...

I only use Arrangement view. I'm a longtime Cubase user and have also given Logic a try. I could think of so many reasons why I don't use Cubase and Logic anymore for producing tracks. The Media browser in Cubase sucks so bad after using Live's browser. Cubase and logic are so bloated, CPU hogs, more features then I need. No built in sampler, Gimmick Instruments like Groove Agent One, EXS24 is so ugly and tedious to use, stupid windows open all the time and get in the way etc etc. No thanks. Those days are over...

+1 Arrangement view here. Use what works best for you.

[dna598]

I can't use arrangement view without at some point taking a selection from it and throwing it in session view to get some fills and cuts.

You can use the session view to do the real time arranging.

This is what most potential users simply can't grasp. (not saying thats you)

Its much easier and more creative to arrange in ableton for me, than logic.
This for dnb aswell.

[4.33]

for me, live is for live only once i found reaper, which has everything OP lists, plus super easy routing, plus entirely customizable shortcuts, plus it's more stable and easier on cpu, plus... wait, i'd better shut up

errrr, Reaper, eh? I've been hearing things. I know I'll get shot for this, but how does it compare to Live for recording? (I don't need Live for "live", simply for composing songs, structuring them, and I ONLY use arrangement view)

for timeline recording is the same, really. but you get takes and automation curves, and you get to assign your own hotkeys and shortcuts for editing and navigation, which was the major selling point for me. editing is now so much easier.

the time i've invested into learning the features and creating my own hotkeys has defenitely paid off.
the funny thing is that i still haven't invested any money - the evaluation version is uncrippled, and you only have a 5-second nag screen when you start it.
but this is the first product after live that i feel owed to.

[4.33]

You can use the session view to do the real time arranging.

.

yes, if you want to chop an amen break to simplers and work with midi.
but no, if you prefer to work with waveforms.

[nylarch]

Session for DJ'ing, Arrangement for producing. Session just doesn't resonate with me when I'm writing.

Take folders and some implementation of screen sets (I like to make the Midi editing area huge when I'm editing Midi - would be nice to not have to drag that out and back) would be the ONLY thing I want from Logic. Other than that keep it simple. Ableton's take on group tracks is so simple and intuitive - stay on that mode and not Logic's mode of a million menus and choices....

[3phase]

I can't use arrangement view without at some point taking a selection from it and throwing it in session view to get some fills and cuts.
This is what most potential users simply can't grasp. (not saying thats you)

Its much easier and more creative to arrange in ableton for me, than logic.

This for dnb aswell.

You mention this like if it would be a feature... but see it as it is... timeconsuming workarounds for lives disabililty to do multitrack edits in session view..

one would really like to avoid this half baked aranger with its quircky selection modes, non name able grouptracks and disability to handle (copy paste inbetween) multiple arrange versions.

You just say that Lives arranger is more creative and easier to use than logics... but what a bold statement..

CAn you please back that with some facts? it looks better? what in the world should make lives arranger more creative than the same kind of window in anny other daw?

Is there anything you can do in abletons live arranger you cant do in logics arrager aswell?

Beside the littel advantages i mentioned before logic offers.. multiple arrange versions ..nameable grouptracks and lots of of quick and logical selections ...even more with the usere definable key commands? and ... vertical zooming..with key commands... and the auto track zoom.. so easy..so nice... (is this patent protected?)

I dont see anything in Lives arranger that is beneficial and not just eating time..

Could you please enlighten me? what is it lives arrager can do the other daw´s cant do better?

The look and easy to learn minimal feature set? the limitation is an advantage? ok..
In the early days of live i shared your opinion.. but i expected the arranger to get more developed over time..
to get rid of this click here ..and click there..and click here and cick there and click here and click there again mode of operation...

Theese quite retard compatibel handling concept of Ableton Live has a certain charme to it when you are totally stoned on non natural heavys... but over the years...all this extra moves add up ...and add up...
A twice as much move DAW

And allways theese halfbaked implementions that leave room for later optimisations...

just.. later is many years later...

Wrong prioritys all over the place?
cool hidden user remote scripts that are not even mentioned in the manual...
so a real democratic feature... only for thoose who know.. the backstage of ableton live...only for the rectified rainers.
And
max for live... also very democratic... a rectified rainers haven.. get a job--learn how to teach ableton...

Isnt this contradictionary to the retard compatible feature set?


And when do we get now the possibiliy to work and edit between mutiple arrange versions?
This is a user wish as old as the arranger itself..
When? after 8 years.. i think...

This is not going to change...

It´s just theire style.. The quircky base concept and "red line" in the development handwriting now found its expression in the weard behaving and allways changing bugs..
Thats just a logical consequence.. and i understand now why Ableton sees any bug as a user bug...
The Program is alive... thats no bugs.. in the deepest dark layers of the mess it started to live.. and now it punishes users that dont enjoy the beauty of it´s crippled limbs...

the whole thing is a huge experiment.. a structure build on wobbely conceptional mud.. an anamorph organic design... a high developed nerd product that rather will start to automatical arrange for you, instead supplying one of the most basic arrange functions first...

maybe not too bad.. an auto arranger that learns your style and offers variations ..the magix music maker...


I am pretty sure we will see that first, long before the ability to work in multiple instances