Anyone seriously use arrangement?

[3phase]

Weird...

I only use Arrangement view. I'm a longtime Cubase user and have also given Logic a try. I could think of so many reasons why I don't use Cubase and Logic anymore for producing tracks. The Media browser in Cubase sucks so bad after using Live's browser. Cubase and logic are so bloated, CPU hogs, more features then I need. No built in sampler, Gimmick Instruments like Groove Agent One, EXS24 is so ugly and tedious to use, stupid windows open all the time and get in the way etc etc. No thanks. Those days are over...

+1 Arrangement view here. Use what works best for you.

ok..you like abletons arrange.. good for you..whatever leads to a result cant be really bad... but...


where is the advantage that you have to buy abletons sampler for many euros as an extra? sorry i dont see that..

and cpu hog? maybe this looks like on the plain running program if you are on a too slow machine.. but i can use at least 3 times as much plug ins in logic than i can do in live... it rather feels like 5 times as much.. and.. even with live in rewire to logic i still can open more plugs within logic than i can do in live alone !!!

so .sorry.. the cpu hog is relative here...

I agree with the window here and window there thing.. to a certain degree..ever worked with multiple monitors?

it´s actually nice..at least for your main daw... aslong live is just one of the windows of your main daw its of cause cool that everything is in one window...

beside that i actually would preffer the middle road here.. one window concept as we have it.. but the possebility to have one extra window.. that with the aid of ARTEFICIAL INTELLIGENCE !!!! shows you what you need to see

i really hate that you allways have to twiddle with the window when working with the midi editor..

so just an extra window for whatever is clip related ? of cause an extra window for arrange could be nice aswell..

but here we can switch with keycommands...

arteficial intelligence when touching the midi editor could be nice .

the program detects wether one is using the midieditor or not and is adjusting the screen automatically.. wow..welcome to the world of tomorow

[luddy]

Cubase and logic are so bloated, CPU hogs, more features then I need

(emphasis mine) I have to say in Logic's defense that I don't think the "CPU hog" charge is correct. Logic is far more efficient in terms of CPU utilization than Live. I can run projects with 200 tracks in Logic on my Mac Pro. It can handle far more audio playback and far more plug-in instances than Live. Now, I think there's a good reason for that; Live is a 'live' audio environment that keeps all of its instruments and audio tracks active in a way that Logic doesn't, and that makes it possible to depend on Live for live performance in a way that Logic just can't match. This is the reason that Mainstage is a separate product from Logic. But still, to be fair, Logic really does a good job stretching computer resources for in-studio production.

-Luddy

[Machinesworking]

Weird...

I only use Arrangement view. I'm a longtime Cubase user and have also given Logic a try. I could think of so many reasons why I don't use Cubase and Logic anymore for producing tracks. The Media browser in Cubase sucks so bad after using Live's browser. Cubase and logic are so bloated, CPU hogs, more features then I need. No built in sampler, Gimmick Instruments like Groove Agent One, EXS24 is so ugly and tedious to use, stupid windows open all the time and get in the way etc etc. No thanks. Those days are over...

+1 Arrangement view here. Use what works best for you.

Another jab at ya about the blatant false statement about CPU usage, typical figures throughout the years on CPU VS Logic and Cubase have Live using 35% more CPU than Logic and 20% more than Cubase. If you were to compare the EXS24 to Lives' Sampler I would guarantee this disparity would be much worse. The EXS is by far the leanest sampler on the market. Plus is literally smokes Sampler in load times, you can browse sample libraries as fast as browsing presets in a synth, and it's not $125 extra or part of a suite you have to buy separately.
Arrange windows in Logic are entirely customizable, meaning all the feature bloat people complain about becomes a bonus. This is exactly the opposite of Live where a wanted feature is a wait for an upgrade and a hope it might get implemented. Of course use what you want to, I'm just saying feature wise, Live has a way to go before it compares to Logic or DP in this part. Again Session has no real rival though.

[wascal]

+1 arrangement view on Live 7 suite

Usually running about 50-60 channels on a finished tune but a lot of that is one-off sounds etc. Most I've had was 90ish on a remix i did for si begg that got a bit out of hand.

http://www.soundcloud.com/wascal if you want to have a listen btw

[SubFunk]

sketching up loops and sounds in session and then straight to arrange or logic.

[Pasha]

I use session to record as much as I can about variations and scenes.
After that I 'glue' all together by capturing an improvisation in arrangement.
Then I polish (add, remove) everything in arrangement. Coming from the glorious
world of analog tape recorder with only 8 tracks I tend to use the spaces in a track
to add a brief one shot part and do not create a track on his own.
That's why my track count is low as 14. Arrangement view is 60% of the work in a project
for me but without the 40% time spent in session Arrangement would be painfully empty...

- Best
- Pasha

[jimmynitcher]

I switched from Logic years ago, much prefer the simpler approach, one window (I was forever -opening and closing menus/resizing screen sets/making up new key commands I could never remember), I love having just one tool(!) renaming, copying regions and automation (can you copy and paste automation yet?) all seem easier, plus the creative convenience of having two sequencers is massive for me - I love not having to worry about the composition when trying something out - in a single sequencer you'd have to put it somewhere in the song and that would often be enough to put me off trying so my songwriting would be more conservative.
I hated the EXS too (though its cheap I agree) and Ultrabreat,(rings and dials everywhere) and to make an arpeggiator you had to go into the dreaded "Environment" and physically cable it up and fiddle around in arrange view to change its resolution, oh god I feel ill just thinking about it all now, I could go on and on, I used it for ages, or it used me I'm not sure.
Oh I seem to have joined into a thread within a thread....
Why do you think the locators are small? - its a bloody great thing - oh thats another thing, in Logic I was forever creating new markers when swiping the bar ruler to set the loop (everywhere you look there are functions!)
I suppose aliases might be handy, I guess I've just got used to simply copying and pasting (the time commands I find really handy, I write songs that usually have between 30 and 40 tracks - I'd like to be able to name groups - I'm sure that will come soon, certainly not going to switch sequencers for it.

[Cool Character]

+1 arrangement here. That's mostly where I work on stuff.

OH you mean in Ableton.
Heh heh, well uhh...

[dna598]

I can't use arrangement view without at some point taking a selection from it and throwing it in session view to get some fills and cuts.
This is what most potential users simply can't grasp. (not saying thats you)

Its much easier and more creative to arrange in ableton for me, than logic.

This for dnb aswell.

You mention this like if it would be a feature... but see it as it is... timeconsuming workarounds for lives disabililty to do multitrack edits in session view..

one would really like to avoid this half baked aranger with its quircky selection modes, non name able grouptracks and disability to handle (copy paste inbetween) multiple arrange versions.

You just say that Lives arranger is more creative and easier to use than logics... but what a bold statement..

CAn you please back that with some facts? it looks better? what in the world should make lives arranger more creative than the same kind of window in anny other daw?

Ok....

I dare not try and sway your anti-ableton stance 3phase. I am a long time logic user on pc.

But using the arrangement page in conjunction with the sesssion view provides something no other daw does and I think u know this.

Have you ever chopped out sections of your drums and made some scenes for triggering back into the arrangement?

Me personally,I am all about drums and slicing BUT I hate programming drum fills.Call me fucking lazy I dont give a shit.

But I think it is the most boring way of trying to re create something that is a totally spontaneous and creative act.

Live has gone a long way to provide that spontaneity and taken that boring "programming" element out of working heavy drum arrangements.

For that Logic is not in the game.(yet)

I dont need to do score editing or program sysex strings for what I do.

In logic, obviously it is not possible to perform your arrangement and record it.

So, For me its LIves streamlined arrangement alongside the instant playability of session view that nails it for me.

Not that it cant be improved obviously 3phase!


Hell, I was even bitching about slice auditioning for a year and found out yesterday that its in there.

[3phase]

I'd like to be able to name groups - I'm sure that will come soon, certainly not going to switch sequencers for it.

i would be more positive about ableton if the past would not have shown that practical things are the last that get implemented.. sometimes abelton adds weard clip trigger concepts just to remove them 2 versions later while age old wishes are seen as too complikated.. but than.. somebody says integration of max... and no task to difficult no price too high...

in a way thats symphatic.. live is theire toy and they design it for theire needs.. its not really a daw .. its tailored for a way of working.. and you follow that way or you run into some things that appear rather not so bright..

i wouldnt expect ableton to folow theire own design conventions and have grouptracks nameable before 2012

maybe theire new scrum master has an impact and can make them see the whole thing as a daw projekt and not a personal toy projekt again...

the grouptracks which was one of the main features of L8 are probably again a feature like the midi implementation in L4 we needed to buy 3 times to have something now one can work with.. a primitiv standard... but working... just all this plug in hazzle for theese standard midi functions that should be clip related.. just following abletons own design conventions...
the only daw where audio is mor flexible than the midi !! ... but the midi is not very flexible.. you cant rescale time !!

oh oh... the program where you can scale time with audio cant do it with midi :-/

conceptional the abes are really bad.. you just can sit there before the program and point at one conceptional mistake after the other.. as an amateur.. the have professional "developers"..

actually. they develop something.. but there is no plan behind... defently not the plan to build a daw..
rather following impulses..wishlists.. marketing stunts. and getting rid of bugs and audio problems...
its not a designed product.. its rather like a plant..

still a good product.. surprisingly.. developed by fuzzy logic.. but it works..takes a bit longer.. but in the end.. impressiv what a body without a head can do.

[dna598]

i wouldnt expect ableton to folow theire own design conventions and have grouptracks nameable before 2012

I dont get it. I can name my grouptracks.

edit- ah, you mean groups of clips right? edit again-Hold on you can do that too. so, i still dont get it.

[3phase]

Ok....

I dare not try and sway your anti-ableton stance 3phase. I am a long time logic user on pc.

But using the arrangement page in conjunction with the sesssion view provides something no other daw does and I think u know this.

yes.. i know this... and this was the big aha yippii fx from 2002 when this was implemeted the way its is now with all the flaws... a great vision.. and than? 6 years without touchning that main advantages, just adding and adding other things.. some of them important.. but adding them in such slow ways.. 3 years for rudimentary midi alone.. 3 updates = 400 euro extra?

and than.. now L8.. :-/ sorry man.. if this would have been developed any further from 2002 to now i would agree..

but i ve to conclude that improoving the arranger and associated functions is not really on the agenda.
never was..its exept some automation gimicks just the same as in the very first versions.. same abilitys..same problems...
a desert...

Ok...
we can be happy when the exsisting feature set just works.. we dont walk on solid ground here.. the next update it can go crashing again .. and the pristine transparent audio quality of live is also just an illusion that highly depends on your system and actual version of the program. its a mess.. and the arranger is one aswell..at least overview wise..

especially with the grouptracks.. its good that they are there as trigger sub groups.. but than again.. the whole concept how arranger and session view interact... its not bad.. but waiting for improovements since many years now.

you have to record in session view and arrange simultaniously for many many posible tasks...

but just than again it gets realy essential to have not only one arrange version..or it gets uncomfortable..

when life started it had a minimal feature set.. and was pretty comfortable.. no midi.. just audio tracks.. so little track counts.. the whole thing rather ment to be rewired or run together with another daw...


than it grew .. wanted to become a daw.. but.. to the cost of the initial purity and overview.. just adding and hiding is not a real design solution..

sorry.. the whole arrange recording thing could get some comfort improovements badly..
as the group tracks need that. they work..but they dont help the overview..to the contrary...
In other daw´s grouptracks are an overview feature.. in live its just a trigger feature..without own group follow actions :-/

and the midi editor..and the timecode handling..

actually that al goes hand in hand. And as long i dindt see any efforts from abletons side to do anything workflow related

I ve to diss the arranger because it started to hurt.. i dont like to work with it anymore.. and ther was times i ctually enjoyed the zen of its minimal dupikate time / erase time functiuonality... but the overview.. and all theese extra clicks.. collaps track here .. enlarge it there.. it´s so trouble some when you compare that to other arrangers where you navigate and zoom without even touching the mouse...

[Poster]

Comparing Live's Arranger to Logicubase is just useless.. Ableton never intended to match it and never will.. People will only be satisfied until the complete feature set of other DAWs is implemented, so if you think Ableton should look like the others you're better off using Logicubase.. Ableton should just improve Live's core and strenghts, not trying to be what others are already doing very well..

Though I welcome improvements to the Arranger I rather see Ableton focus on Session and it's relation to the Arranger, and vice versa.. The non linear approach was very boutique at the time but has lost it's shine a bit.. The main flaw Session has to me is that Session clips are very limiting, meaning a clip is just a clip and especially in case of audio you can't change/rearrange it's content.. That's why I hardly use Session and go straight to the Arranger, where non linearity is non existent.. A damn shame..

Session clips have to become 'mini arrangers' (Meta Clips) and the Arranger needs non linear arranging features..

[BoxDJ]

I use it a fair amount.

[3phase]

i wouldnt expect ableton to folow theire own design conventions and have grouptracks nameable before 2012

I dont get it. I can name my grouptracks.

edit- ah, you mean groups of clips right?

no.. i mean when you collapse/hide a group you dont have name clips .. so you cant collaps them without loosing overview...

thats in session..
in arrange you miss them even more badly... the master grouptrack that should act as edit master track just shows theese shady graphics..its interna.. but no names or colour.. i cant cut a 8 bar piece color it read and call it break..what helps arranging a lot..

and... this is not following abletons own design conventions.. that is par defenition bad design..

the interna of a track midi or audio are only shown when zoomed in... zoomed out its just a name color bar....


sorry.. that is not just conceptionally bad, it affects operation badly because of overview loss on collapsed groups..
I am sure that they will change that eventually at one point because its so bad that it actualy really hurts...

It also hurts posibble future developments..the groups could become a mighty tool.. within the arranger..they even could provide the multiple arrange versions or multitrack editing...
I think they could have had at least a name bar in the 1.0 version allready... there is enough potential for other upgrades.. such halfbaked implematations feel a bit like squeezing upgrade pennys out of the customer..
"just let us implement it this rudimentary.. so we can expand on it in later upgrades.."

sorry.. to expand on it with a name bar is a bit too simple


the upgrade to L8 was rich with new features and bugs... too rich... less is more when its ready developed.. or at least developed to a state where the basics are there....

beeing consistent within the own graphical conventions is defently part of the basics...


there are many things that can be added to group functionality for later upgrades well beyond such basics