Looking for Flexible Kick Synthesis Solution

[Dr. Fluffenstein]

I've recently decided that I can't get the exact results I want by browsing through samples. Specifically I'm interested in kicks, often times my kick samples aren't in the key I want them to be and I hesitate to pitch them down/up since it sound to me like it messes the sound up (correct me if I'm wrong). Often they just don't sound like I want them to, too much "click", too much "pop", you get the picture. So I'm interested in learning kick synthesis.

I know the bread and butter basics like pitch ramp and all, and I'm looking for something more than synthesizing basic 909 sounding kicks, I'm looking for a way to incorporate the grit and peculiarities of sampled kicks into synthesized ones (but I don't know if that's possible since I know a lot of kicks are layered). I'd prefer to avoid layering unless it's absolutely necessary. Evidently I don't know much about kick synthesis, so I was wondering if I could get some pointers on here. For example I'm not sure how little imperfections in the waveform influence the final result or how effects can be used. I realize the power of Live's racks in making complex instruments, so I sort of have it in the back of my mind to find an appropriate synth and incorporate it into racks to make a flexible kick synthesis rack.

I don't know if I'm over-complicating things or not or if the idea is too far-fetched, but I still think it would be a handy thing to learn. Can anyone please offer some pointers or resources? Alternatively if anyone knows an appropriate synth or Ableton rack I'd be happy to hear about it.

[posssu]

This is not exactly what you're asking, but the answers I got to my question may help you as well:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=147867

[Dr. Fluffenstein]

Thanks, it's a good start. It's part of what I'm looking for . I'm pretty much open to any advice that has something to do with kicks.

[djsynchro]

Kicks (and most drum sounds) more often than not have a pitch envelope so are not "in a key"

[alex.the.forge]

the pitch envelope can be good for the attack part of it, but if you are using operator then you can also have another oscillator set to a fixed frequency in the key you are in, with an amplitude envelope controlling how long it plays for/decay etc

to give a guide, middle C (C3) has a fundamental frequency of 263Hz, (if it is just a sine wave then that is the only frequency) then half of that is 131.5Hz (which would be a good root note/fundamental, or the most prominent frequency for the bass line) and then you could halve the sub-bass/kick at half that again which is about 65-66Hz - a lot of kicks have a prominent peak around this range so you could work it out like this according to the key (EG A = 440Hz/220Hz/110Hz/55Hz, so in A give it a sub kick at 55Hz) - half or double a frequency is an octave above or below

Use the spectrum plugin to help you work it out

so what you could maybe do - set Operator in the global section to the Algortihm where the oscillators are parallel (the one furthest to the right) and one oscillator can use the pitch envelope to create the punchy attack, but have the amplitude envelope of it fade pretty quickly so it doesn't play long enough have a lot of sub, just mainly for the attack, then have a 2nd oscillator with the fixed button on set to exactly the frequency that is the root note of the key you are in. It might also work if it's not the root/fundamental note but say a 5th above/ below. You may even be able to delay the attack of this one a little so they are separated more.

another option is to not use the algorithm where all 4 oscillators are parallel but they look like a square - i.e. 2 above 2 -> 2 oscillators to the output and 2 oscillators to modulate them. You could do what I just described but also use a little FM. Sometimes just a little FM modulation can create some upper harmonics that make it cut through a little better

I do this with sub bass for example, just a plain sine wave in Operator is great for just the sub-bass that you feel, but you cant really hear it if there are no upper harmonics present, (and so you may turn it up too loud to compensate, or put more bass in from somewhere else when it's not needed) and you can create some upper hamonics really easily just by turning up another oscillator that is set to modulate it by just a little. Fm Synthesis is really useful for gently adding some upper harmonics by turning the level of the modulator up by a little

[wehkah]

here are 2 kick synth tests i've made with operator.... its not finished but a good startingpoint to get phat drums.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7999451/ableton ... %20001.adv
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7999451/ableton ... lab001.adg

made in 8.1.5 suite, requires operator

have fun..
T

if anyone has a good and simple drum patch pleeeze post it here

[re.mark]

Theres no one ideal patch imo. look at layering different sounds, different waveforms/pitches/speed of envlope.
I read wise words once from SonicTransfer.com

The house and trance kick drum is the most important drum for these genres and also one of the least understood. A good kick drum can be felt in the chest, has a noticable thump at the beginning, and has a low bass frequency tone at the end. Trance and house music vary the kick drum’s mixing relative to the other drums and the bass. However, the basic formula for creating a solid club-worthy kick drum is the same for all styles of dance music. The kick drum needs the following elements:

1. A very short (5-30ms) mid-to-high frequency click sound. For this you can use a hihat, tambourine, rimshot, shaker, or another kick drum with the bass frequencies removed.
2. A relatively short (300-600ms) low-to-mid frequency range punch sound. For this you can use a kick drum with a strong attack. You will also want to make room for the next sound (the tone) by removing the lowest frequencies of this sample. (So remove all frequencies below 30 Hz.)
3. A longer (3-9 sec) sub bass tone. For this you can use a synthesizer-generated sine wave. Or, you can use a sample from the Roland 808 drum machine. In a pinch, you could also use another kick drum sound and remove all of the mid and high frequencies. It is incredibly important that you tune this element to match the key of your song. Also, you need to fade in this element over 50ms to 1 sec.

If you arrange your layers in this fashion, you will produce a kick drum with a quick attack and lots of punch that is shortly followed by a long sub bass tone that really thumps. Now that you know how a kick drum is layered, it’s time to build one for yourself.

http://sonictransfer.com/kick-drum-desi ... rial.shtml

[djsynchro]

kick in the nuts

[djsynchro]

like... Macadamia.

[contakt321]

Sometimes I like to use 2 Kicks.

1 for sound, 1 for punch.

I layer one, high-passed, that has the character that I want, with another low-passed that has the punch that I want. From hear I adjust the frequency, and attack on both to get them in sync.

Also, I think tuning kicks is beneficial, you hear how the song starts to gel when you do. You don't have to tune the kick to the root of the key you are using, just aim to tune to one of the notes in key, you likely wont have to go up or down more than a few steps.

I know this isn't directly related, just trying to give you some mileage out of your current technique.

[Dr. Fluffenstein]

Thanks to everyone for all the tips, I don't own operator unfortunately so I was wondering if anyone knew a free alternative I could use for now. I think I'm going to make a rack with a bunch of simplers and different kinds of waveforms + effects and see where that gets me. If it sounds good I'll be happy to share

Kicks (and most drum sounds) more often than not have a pitch envelope so are not "in a key"

Ya I agree, but the tail usually levels out at the base frequency, so usually you can hear a specific pitch.

so what you could maybe do - set Operator in the global section to the Algortihm where the oscillators are parallel (the one furthest to the right) and one oscillator can use the pitch envelope to create the punchy attack, but have the amplitude envelope of it fade pretty quickly so it doesn't play long enough have a lot of sub, just mainly for the attack, then have a 2nd oscillator with the fixed button on set to exactly the frequency that is the root note of the key you are in. It might also work if it's not the root/fundamental note but say a 5th above/ below. You may even be able to delay the attack of this one a little so they are separated more.

another option is to not use the algorithm where all 4 oscillators are parallel but they look like a square - i.e. 2 above 2 -> 2 oscillators to the output and 2 oscillators to modulate them. You could do what I just described but also use a little FM. Sometimes just a little FM modulation can create some upper harmonics that make it cut through a little better

Sweet, those are the kinds of tips I'm looking for, I was wondering how FM synthesis could be used. Can any other types of synthesis be used for kicks?

here are 2 kick synth tests i've made with operator.... its not finished but a good startingpoint to get phat drums.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7999451/ableton ... %20001.adv
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7999451/ableton ... lab001.adg

Thanks, I guess I could still record them in demo mode

http://sonictransfer.com/kick-drum-desi ... rial.shtml

I came across that site some time ago, pretty handy info on there , but I want to avoid using layered samples. I'm all up for making a rack that layers synthesized kicks though, as long as everything can be done with just knobs + macros.

Sometimes I like to use 2 Kicks.

1 for sound, 1 for punch.

I layer one, high-passed, that has the character that I want, with another low-passed that has the punch that I want. From hear I adjust the frequency, and attack on both to get them in sync.

Also, I think tuning kicks is beneficial, you hear how the song starts to gel when you do. You don't have to tune the kick to the root of the key you are using, just aim to tune to one of the notes in key, you likely wont have to go up or down more than a few steps.

I know this isn't directly related, just trying to give you some mileage out of your current technique.

Thanks for the tips, that's usually what I do to add variety to my samples.

kick in the nuts

That wouldn't produce the right sound at all, I'm not trying to make vocals here

[ddavi78]

using hardware like a mbase11 may be what you would like. they are not software and maybe a little pricey but since I bought it I have learned alot about making kicks. it really makes some killer kicks of any variety and you can pitch, layer or not! hope that helps!

Regards

[alex.the.forge]

Thanks to everyone for all the tips, I don't own operator unfortunately so I was wondering if anyone knew a free alternative I could use for now. I think I'm going to make a rack with a bunch of simplers and different kinds of waveforms + effects and see where that gets me. If it sounds good I'll be happy to share

Actually I was going to add in case you didn't that you could do a lot of this with Simpler if you don't. All you need it to build a rack with 2 Simplers + the Sine wave component waveforms from the library (Library>samples>waveforms>components then harmonic or spectral you will find some simple waveforms)

do the attack with one of them and use the other for the sub bass. You could maybe add another or try a different waveform (maybe Triangle) to make up for the lack of FM to add upper harmonics, or instead start with a brighter one and use a filter. (+ filter envelope?)

You can do a surprising amount with Simpler + racks

[Dr. Fluffenstein]

using hardware like a mbase11 may be what you would like. they are not software and maybe a little pricey but since I bought it I have learned alot about making kicks. it really makes some killer kicks of any variety and you can pitch, layer or not! hope that helps!

Regards

Thanks for the pointer, hardware isn't out of the question. I just have to get into this deeply enough to justify buying it.

For now I think I'll try to make something similar using racks .

Actually I was going to add in case you didn't that you could do a lot of this with Simpler if you don't. All you need it to build a rack with 2 Simplers + the Sine wave component waveforms from the library (Library>samples>waveforms>components then harmonic or spectral you will find some simple waveforms)

do the attack with one of them and use the other for the sub bass. You could maybe add another or try a different waveform (maybe Triangle) to make up for the lack of FM to add upper harmonics, or instead start with a brighter one and use a filter. (+ filter envelope?)

You can do a surprising amount with Simpler + racks

I've already started . Problem is, when I go to Library>samples>waveforms>components some of the waveforms that I thought were supposed to be there are missing. There's definitely no sine. Is there someplace where I can download the ableton library waveforms? I tried searching around the internet looking for an analog sine sample, but no luck so far.

I've also been wondering if it would be possible to somehow emulate FM using Live's effects (maybe by using LFO's ?)

[alex.the.forge]

Actually I was going to add in case you didn't that you could do a lot of this with Simpler if you don't. All you need it to build a rack with 2 Simplers + the Sine wave component waveforms from the library (Library>samples>waveforms>components then harmonic or spectral you will find some simple waveforms)

do the attack with one of them and use the other for the sub bass. You could maybe add another or try a different waveform (maybe Triangle) to make up for the lack of FM to add upper harmonics, or instead start with a brighter one and use a filter. (+ filter envelope?)

You can do a surprising amount with Simpler + racks

I've already started . Problem is, when I go to Library>samples>waveforms>components some of the waveforms that I thought were supposed to be there are missing. There's definitely no sine. Is there someplace where I can download the ableton library waveforms? I tried searching around the internet looking for an analog sine sample, but no luck so far.

I've also been wondering if it would be possible to somehow emulate FM using Live's effects (maybe by using LFO's ?)

wow that sounds weird… I've just uploaded the sine folder full of AMS files + the adv file which I can drag to an empty space or MIDI track and it creates a Simpler in multi-sample mode - assuming it will work on your version (8.1.5 here)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cawo9z

incidentally - I made a video series called "designing electronic drums" which shows you how to build electronic sounds out of any old crap, like just recording into a mic and using snippets of it as waveforms

link's in my sig