kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
ChiDJ
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by ChiDJ » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:22 pm

netwarrior wrote:so as i understood i put compression (with ducking) and then saturator / or distortion and after this chain - EQ to eleminate high frequencies which distortion / saturator will give to bass?

and on kick i just put compression and eq?

and how to set compressor for kick ? and for bass? i mean leves of settings?

Brotha,

There are no set rules. There are many times when I have no compression on my tracks, (except for Vox and on the master). Every track is different.

Use your ears. 8)
"Let you're body feel the sound! Let it cover you up and down!"

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dbfs
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by dbfs » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:29 pm

:oops:

bottha
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by bottha » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:39 pm

It would be great if someone would post a Live set with a simple track which demonstrates what he's looking for?

That way, we could all have something concrete to study and ask questions about. If I recall correctly, KJ Sawka posted a set not to long ago which might be a good, if not simple, starting point for a discussion. Yep, here it is:
http://www.ableton.com/madbeatz
At the bottom of the page is a link to download "Void of Truth."
One exercise could be to remove everything but the bass and drum tracks and then reverse engineer them.

<Edit>
I've now gone back to KJ Sawka's track. He's got an EQ and Limiter on the Master track. Take off the limiter and, predictably, it goes into the red. One (perhaps silly) question: is this considered good practice? Or is it the easy way out? That is, should one try to adjust each individual track in order to keep the Master track from going over 0 db?

evon
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by evon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:28 pm

Funnily, if you take out my limiters from the Master Track everything gets noticeable lower.
fe real!

netwarrior
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by netwarrior » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:25 am

yes i also noticed that there is even limiter on master channel in ableton demo song, and multiband compressor...

i agree - turning to proffessionals : guys please put some demo files with right combination effects for bass anc kick...for producing

UnCL0NED
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by UnCL0NED » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:34 am

...

As mentioned by many before on this thread: it all depends on the situation! Every song requires a different approach!
Learn the basics first and only then start talking about how to make a specific kick/bass combo sound "fat"!

It took me a few years to even understand what happens when I put an eq or compressor on a track.
All ideas mentioned before will work, but if not tweaked correctly, will have, a lot of times, the opposite effect...
It can even be so, that if you choose the right sounds for the kick and bass from the start, you may not need to put anything in the chain! Only maybe some compression and/or reverb on the main, to glue the stuff together...

... Or just use the "kick-and-bass-will-sound-fat-chain" preset. 8)

Oh yeah, I'm an amateur, btw!
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"everything you read on the internet is true!"

netwarrior
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by netwarrior » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:42 am

ok, clear, but again - there must be some basic rules for eqing and compressing.
i mean - may be kicks sould have specific frequencies, when checking with analyser , and so do bass...
so which frequencies are they?

what about 300 HZ on kick drum which is mud and should be cutted?
and what bout 2 - 5 Khz which should be rised for better "reading" of a kick drum?


and BTW which samples are best for breakbeat production? which libraries to buy?

monobeach
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by monobeach » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:48 am

for a start, here are some well written tutorials by forum member Tarekith:

http://tarekith.com/assets/mixdowns.html

http://tarekith.com/assets/dynamics.html

memes_33
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by memes_33 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 pm

netwarrior wrote:ok, clear, but again - there must be some basic rules for eqing and compressing.
i mean - may be kicks sould have specific frequencies, when checking with analyser , and so do bass...
so which frequencies are they?

what about 300 HZ on kick drum which is mud and should be cutted?
and what bout 2 - 5 Khz which should be rised for better "reading" of a kick drum?


and BTW which samples are best for breakbeat production? which libraries to buy?
i'm sorry but this just sounds like someone being lazy. asking others how to eq your drums and which sample libraries to use is a few steps down from asking someone to make your song for you. there are general rules that are good to use as starting points, but i've never learned them because I've learned to use my EARS. you are not going to be able to make quality music until you know how to use your ears. plus, this stuff depends a lot on what kind of music you are making. carving out a clear space for your kick & bass is much different if your making dubstep than if you are making trance or making hip hop.

too many young producers want to walk before they crawl. your ears are more important to learn how to use than any eq or compressor, and it can take years to develop your listening skills. i'm not trying to be harsh, it just seems like you are looking for easy answers instead of taking the time to develop your skills.

that being said, when i have trouble with bass frequencies and my ears aren't helping clear things up, i use a spectrum analyzer. look at your kick drums, look at your bass, and then look at them together. if there is a lot of energy on both tracks sharing the same frequency bands, it usually means you need to cut some. it always better to fix problems by cutting frequencies rather than boosting them, but boosting the bass in frequencies where it both sounds good and the kick is not getting in the way often yields good results.
Hip-Hop, Breakbeat, Glitch, IDM, Dub, & Mashups! Go to:
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http://www.soundcloud.com/memes_33

bottha
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by bottha » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:27 pm

memes_33 wrote:
netwarrior wrote:ok, clear, but again - there must be some basic rules for eqing and compressing.
i mean - may be kicks sould have specific frequencies, when checking with analyser , and so do bass...
so which frequencies are they?

what about 300 HZ on kick drum which is mud and should be cutted?
and what bout 2 - 5 Khz which should be rised for better "reading" of a kick drum?


and BTW which samples are best for breakbeat production? which libraries to buy?
i'm sorry but this just sounds like someone being lazy. asking others how to eq your drums and which sample libraries to use is a few steps down from asking someone to make your song for you. there are general rules that are good to use as starting points, but i've never learned them because I've learned to use my EARS. you are not going to be able to make quality music until you know how to use your ears. plus, this stuff depends a lot on what kind of music you are making. carving out a clear space for your kick & bass is much different if your making dubstep than if you are making trance or making hip hop.

too many young producers want to walk before they crawl. your ears are more important to learn how to use than any eq or compressor, and it can take years to develop your listening skills. i'm not trying to be harsh, it just seems like you are looking for easy answers instead of taking the time to develop your skills.

that being said, when i have trouble with bass frequencies and my ears aren't helping clear things up, i use a spectrum analyzer. look at your kick drums, look at your bass, and then look at them together. if there is a lot of energy on both tracks sharing the same frequency bands, it usually means you need to cut some. it always better to fix problems by cutting frequencies rather than boosting them, but boosting the bass in frequencies where it both sounds good and the kick is not getting in the way often yields good results.
I'm sorry but this sounds like so much hand waving (does that make a sound?) You suggest that those looking for concrete examples may be displaying laziness? Perhaps that is the case with some, but, in general, I disagree and here's why:

In many fields, the way that those starting out learn is by inspecting, questioning, and building upon the work of their more informed and experienced colleagues. For example, it is standard practice for a beginning computer scientist to take apart the code written by an experienced programmer. That's the way it is in school and when starting out in the work place. Check out any good book on practical programming - it's chock full of useful code. It's that simple. Programming is as much an art as a science (just like creating tracks, no?). And experienced programmers might say "use your judgment, etc." But, in my experience, the ones who are genuinely interested in helping their less experienced colleagues will offer some polished code to examine. Or will take a look at the code of the journeyman and offer useful suggestions. At least this has been my experience. That is the "science" part of the art/science of doing anything creative. There are some best practices that have been honed by the collective wisdom of those working the field. Why not help inexperienced producers with this aspect? No one (at least not I) is asking anyone to write a track for them.

I don't see the harm in offering concrete examples of good practice. Are those who bristle at the thought of letting others examine their work afraid they'll give up their secrets? Or that they will be asked questions they can't answer? That their making things too easy for the whippersnappers? I can't figure out the reluctance.

evon
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by evon » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:48 pm

Yes Bottha, I know exactly where you are comming from. This is not programming this proly is just raw art.
No amount of bawlin and beggin can defer the hard work required to achieve mastery.
We were all there before. Probably you need to pay some money and enroll in a good class. What you want requires a lot of time and energy.
fe real!

netwarrior
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by netwarrior » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:21 pm

im not lazy. i read many forums, but this one seems to be most suitable for me as i guessed.

i know bout my ears, but not only ears are main tool but some technical aspects too.

i want to sound . and i want to make my productions on high level , and not like cheesy teeny things

i have already made 2 releases on net lables, but still im not satisfied with myself...so i decided to ask you, and everyone who is writing here for me - helping me a lot!

and as i know kick and bass is the main problem with producers:) so they search .... as me:)

H20nly
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by H20nly » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm

:idea:
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

memes_33
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by memes_33 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm

bottha- i hear what you are saying- i think i am reacting to a bunch of previous threads along the same vein and unfairly had netwarrior as the brunt of my annoyances. i don't think the question is out-of-line at all, and i think what i reacted to initially was the "what breakbeat library should i buy" question (i hate sample libraries and refuse to use them- its my main "rule") and vented my frustrations on this particular thread. there are a lot of people on here who are just getting started out and think that they can become great producers with easy answers, and that bothers me because it takes time & effort (save for a few "naturals" who seem to be able to go from noob to pro in 1 month's time!).

netwarrior- i'm sorry i implied you were lazy, i just keep seeing these questions over and over. i would gladly take screenshots of my eq settings if i thought there were any value in them. i've read a ton of "rules-of-thumb" regarding eq'ing drums (mostly acoustical drums) but never retain the information b/c i don't use it. drum machine sounds also vary so much in frequency range that i doubt there is any real good "rules of thumb".

what i do know is that i have been working with audio a long time, and my ears have had to adjust (and still are) in order for me to figure out frequency distribution. some engineers i have worked with know by ear and can say "take out 3 dB at 500Hz on the kick" and are pretty spot-on with their assessment. that is what i strive for.

so, i have no helpful information, really. i'm just bored at work ;)
Hip-Hop, Breakbeat, Glitch, IDM, Dub, & Mashups! Go to:
http://memes.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/memes_33

UnCL0NED
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Re: kick and bass how to make them sound massive and punch

Post by UnCL0NED » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:17 am

Hey netwarrior,

My experience is: You can only learn so much from browsing the forums and reading the magazines.

What really boosted my mixing skills was reading an actual book on mixing (actually I've read a few). It's like memis_33 pointed out... If you're really that eager to learn go to school and check in pro studios or read a good book, written by a pro/teacher. One book that I really enjoyed reading was:
Mixing Audio by Roey Izhaki. I read so many things in there, that I've read a million times before, but only here they were explained in such a understandable way, that it actually made sense using them in that way!

People that write on forums and in magazines can have a lot of knowledge, but to explain it to someone without this knowledge, is a whole different game.

Good luck with your search... Remember to enjoy the journey as well...
soundcloud
"everything you read on the internet is true!"

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