Max4Live Runtime will benefit Ableton more than it Realizes

[Acid303]

The smart business decision would be to use M4L runtime to sell many more copies of ableton live. Of course Ableton already sold loads of copies of 8 by marketing M4L as an integral part of it..but its it? Not with that price tag. So have loyal live users been cheated? Sure, sell the full version to developers who want to make a profit out of it, but what about the Live community?

Most people don't want to do crazy M4L geeky programming stuff (people who do this in this M4L forum are a very small minority of live users). Wasn't a big chunk of the live 8 marketing that we would get M4L? They you go and make it inaccessible by slapping a massive €250 price tag on it to use a few random, non essential 3rd party effects, this is a joke and puts M4L miles away from most live users. Live is already and expensive DAW especially the suite - look at the sampler, instrument and fx £300 logic includes - you are charging £210 just for a random expansion stuff.

We want a runtime to just use for random apps. It's a great selling feature that you have this M4L thing...it adds to the uniqueness of your software and should be used to sell live to people not to milk customers you already have. Make M4L a phenomenon amongst all live users - let us share, build our community

[stringtapper]

Of course Ableton already sold loads of copies of 8 by marketing M4L as an integral part of it..but its it? Not with that price tag. So have loyal live users been cheated?

They never marketed it as anything other than what it is: MaxMSP running inside Live 8. They always said it would be an extra expense. No one was forced to buy M4L. No one was cheated.

Most people don't want to do crazy M4L geeky programming stuff (people who do this in this M4L forum are a very small minority of live users).

M4L is not for everyone. It is, after all, a programming environment.

Wasn't a big chunk of the live 8 marketing that we would get M4L? They you go and make it inaccessible by slapping a massive €250 price tag on it to use a few random, non essential 3rd party effects, this is a joke and puts M4L miles away from most live users. Live is already and expensive DAW especially the suite - look at the sampler, instrument and fx £300 logic includes - you are charging £210 just for a random expansion stuff.

So it's just "random expansion stuff" yet you are trying to make the case that Ableton should make it available to more people? If all M4L is to you is "a few random, non essential 3rd party effects," then why are you even concerned enough to make a thread about it?

We want a runtime to just use for random apps. It's a great selling feature that you have this M4L thing...it adds to the uniqueness of your software and should be used to sell live to people not to milk customers you already have. Make M4L a phenomenon amongst all live users - let us share, build our community

Wait, so you only want to use "random apps" but you want "us" to share and build the community? Your vision makes no sense. If "all Live users" are getting a M4L runtime, which by definition is not a programming environment but rather a shell to run patches made in Max, then who exactly is it that's making all these "random apps?"

Oh right, that would be all of us who understand that M4L is a programming environment and use it as such.

I'll give you the same advice I've given others who have clamored for a M4L runtime: just forget that M4L exists. You can use all of the tools in Live or the Live Suite to accomplish all kinds of things. You got by before M4L, you can still get by without it.

[broc]

Leaving emotions alone, I think the original question is still valid.

There is Max (for programmers) and Max Runtime (for end users).
Why can't the same be done with M4L?

Maybe for technical reasons or business, but we can only speculate.

[S4racen]

And if the patches that you could run inside the runtime were a low cost option, who'd be interested then??

Cheers
D

[pid]

i'm with broc.

ignoring the whole "what i would like" question, there are many many reasons for runtime that go far beyond the personal user.

right now i do EVERYTHING in max/msp/jitter BECAUSE there is such an excellent runtime / ability to build standalone apps. this is because i can build patches for other musicians who have no idea what max is and they can just operate completely bespoke solutions right out of the box, as it were.

at the moment, live / m4l is for my own personal projects / amusement only. now what about this: how about a completely functioning ableton-live runtime and a similar m4l runtime? then i would buy and maintain full versions of suite/mmj (as i do now) AND use both all the time - because i would be able to do what i mentioned above for others.

while the concept of the m4l implementation seems to be very 'plugin'-like, this is illogical for max and so i do not think of it as such because that is exactly what max is not. mmj is so much more than that and its development and usage is in large part because of the runtime. at least an m4l runtime is a no-brainer for me, and would not change my using / purchasing full versions of everything.

2 cents as they say.

[Surreal]

maybe Ableton/Cycling just want to get M4L on sure footing before releasing what boils down to a second version. I agree that the desire for a runtime is valid, but i think we should all cool out a moment before we start telling Ableton and Cycling what the 'smart' thing to do is. They, most likely, have a plan.

[S4racen]

maybe Ableton/Cycling just want to get M4L on sure footing before releasing what boils down to a second version. I agree that the desire for a runtime is valid, but i think we should all cool out a moment before we start telling Ableton and Cycling what the 'smart' thing to do is. They, most likely, have a plan.

Agreed...

Cheers
D

[stringtapper]

how about a completely functioning ableton-live runtime and a similar m4l runtime?

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. What would a "completely functioning Ableton Live runtime" do that Live in demo mode doesn't do? (hint: there are only two things the demo doesn't already do that full Live does, save and render)

maybe Ableton/Cycling just want to get M4L on sure footing before releasing what boils down to a second version. I agree that the desire for a runtime is valid, but i think we should all cool out a moment before we start telling Ableton and Cycling what the 'smart' thing to do is. They, most likely, have a plan.

That's my stance on the whole thing really. I'd rather they put their resources into stability and new features.

[pid]

pid wrote:
how about a completely functioning ableton-live runtime and a similar m4l runtime?


Sounds like an oxymoron to me. What would a "completely functioning Ableton Live runtime" do that Live in demo mode doesn't do? (hint: there are only two things the demo doesn't already do that full Live does, save and render)

humble apologies... ...if my conscience allowed me to use those annoying smileys things, i would now insert that funny little animated one meaning "embarrassed". i guess having jumped into live head-on years ago, i had no idea about the current demo status. having said that, i am sure it is not like max when i can author feature-rich standalone apps for end users with it.

maybe Ableton/Cycling just want to get M4L on sure footing before releasing what boils down to a second version. I agree that the desire for a runtime is valid, but i think we should all cool out a moment before we start telling Ableton and Cycling what the 'smart' thing to do is. They, most likely, have a plan.

...of course i completely agree with that sentiment. i guess i was just musing on possible futures. i never make 'feature requests/demands' myself (or try not to!)

as for th op, the "random apps" / "crazy M4L geeky programming stuff" / etc, is all very much what people who do not quite realise just what max is, tend to say... the only real point of this stuff is to make things with it. it is a mentality sort of lost in the last ten years i guess. try using csound circa 1995.

[stringtapper]

i am sure it is not like max when i can author feature-rich standalone apps for end users with it.

You're right, it's not the same, but even full Live and full M4L will never be the same as being able to make standalone Max apps.

It doesn't take much imagination to simply compare Max and M4L on a one-to-one basis and come to all kinds of conclusion about how it "should" work, and I think that's what some people have been doing for a while now. Max running inside a piece of software that has its own price tag is a much different thing than the common practice of making patches and standalone apps to be run in Max Runtime for performance. Compound that with the kinds of misconceptions of what exactly max is that pid talked about and you are bound to have a lot of confusion.

[pid]

well said stringtapper...

[Mudo]

...

Max runtime will be great (free or 50$-99$ maybe?) but...

why not to use Pure data (freeware) and LiveOsc?



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[hoffman2k]

why not to use Pure data (freeware) and LiveOsc?

Because I don't know python and find that patching in PD feels like writing a novel on a stone tablet.

[dna598]

gotta agree with the op here. They should at least include some of the "premium" effects from max in the suite.

[Mudo]

...

why not to use Pure data (freeware) and LiveOsc?

Because I don't know python and find that patching in PD feels like writing a novel on a stone tablet.

You don't need to more python than maxforlive enviorement. When you call a function inside a [box] you are calling a python script... LiveOsc has documented API very clear.

http://monome.q3f.org/browser/trunk/LiveOSC/OSCAPI.txt

In the other hand you don't have the pluggo effects, ok but pure data is FREE.

To me is the best way to learn without restrictions.


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