Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.

[nuperspective]

http://dai.ly/dyJv4S

a friend sent this link to me today, here's stephen fry's thoughts on the subject

hitchens nails it also...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbk46d_shortfilms

same event

[Donnie]

Religion is all in or all out Leeds, that's the whole point.

Again Russ, its not in your power or authority to define what religion/belief is or isnt. Sorry, try again. Individual choice and perception has been a part of the package from the get go, whether you think it has or not.

Even in science people have adamantly stood behind things they thought were right with the perspective at hand. Did that always make them right? Hey man, you are either all in or all out...there is no possible way some things could be right and some things could be wrong.

[UKRuss]

Religion is all in or all out Leeds, that's the whole point.

Again Russ, its not in your power or authority to define what religion/belief is or isnt. Sorry, try again. Individual choice and perception has been a part of the package from the get go, whether you think it has or not.

Even in science people have adamantly stood behind things they thought were right with the perspective at hand. Did that always make them right? Hey man, you are either all in or all out...there is no possible way some things could be right and some things could be wrong.

Individual choice? From the 'get go'? Are you mad as well as delusional? Those in the church that showed individual choice at the 'get go' were put to death by their hundreds of thousands! This still happens in Islam today. Stoning for adultery, amputation for crime etc.etc.

Individual choice....wow. I mean really. wow.

Science has progressed purely because they have been able to stand up and say they were wrong. When one scientist proves anothers theory incorrect they applaud him and move on. History proves the church cannot say the same thing. In what way can the catcholic church be show to be progressive with its stance on female priests, homosexuality, contraception etc.?

I'm glad to hear that Leeds is not a homophobe, but that is not what the bible nor the pope say. But conveniently we can now apprently ignore the bits of the bible we find distasteful at will

How about ignoring the bit where it says god created the universe? The science and common thinking on the subject would back you up.

[Donnie]

Religion is all in or all out Leeds, that's the whole point.

Again Russ, its not in your power or authority to define what religion/belief is or isnt. Sorry, try again. Individual choice and perception has been a part of the package from the get go, whether you think it has or not.

Even in science people have adamantly stood behind things they thought were right with the perspective at hand. Did that always make them right? Hey man, you are either all in or all out...there is no possible way some things could be right and some things could be wrong.

Individual choice? From the 'get go'? Are you mad as well as delusional? Those in the church that showed individual choice at the 'get go' were put to death by their hundreds of thousands! This still happens in Islam today. Stoning for adultery, amputation for crime etc.etc.

Individual choice....wow. I mean really. wow.

Science has progressed purely because they have been able to stand up and say they were wrong. When one scientist proves anothers theory incorrect they applaud him and move on. History proves the church cannot say the same thing. In what way can the catcholic church be show to be progressive with its stance on female priests, homosexuality, contraception etc.?

I'm glad to hear that Leeds is not a homophobe, but that is not what the bible nor the pope say. But conveniently we can now apprently ignore the bits of the bible we find distasteful at will

How about ignoring the bit where it says god created the universe? The science and common thinking on the subject would back you up.

The church does not equal the individual. Again you are equating the institution with the individual.

Plenty inside the church have their own opinions on what the bible means in specific passages. Plenty disagree with the pope. Perhaps you put to much stock in whats on the forefront, what the media tells you, and what fanatics have spewed in front of you.

As far as God creating the universe, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible or Koran that plain as day disputes evolution without an interpretation that leads to that. Many doubt that the timeline of man in Genesis was ever intended to be considered a thorough resource for the timeline of our planet. Even the word for day in the seven days of creation could mean an entire era, its all interpretation. The Koran describes a mechanism for creation. I could go on and on...but it would be likely wasted on you because you are so attached to your idea of what religion is (an idea that lacks quite a bit of perspective.)

In the end, plenty beleive that God created our existance though many stages and processes that were decribed to an ancient man in a simplistic manner.

[UKRuss]

I get you. So, open to interpretation as it is, how about this one:

God didn't create our existence at all.

[Donnie]

I get you. So, open to interpretation as it is, how about this one:

God didn't create our existence at all.

I guess it depends on how you define the terms "God" and "creation".

If "God" means a man in the clouds and "creation" means pointing a finger and shouting "Alakazaam" then I would be inclided to agree with the aforementioned statement.

If "God" means the entirety of all things we exist within and beyond, and creation means a complex system of all things known and unknown actualizing on numerous different levels, then I would have to disagree with your statement.

Heres where you say "but you dont need religion to believe that". In which case I would agree, but that doesnt mean that religion as a whole is invalid, or that it doesnt contain vital metaphysical elements of truth.

[H20nly]

Religion is all in or all out Leeds, that's the whole point.

Again Russ, its not in your power or authority to define what religion/belief is or isnt. Sorry, try again. Individual choice and perception has been a part of the package from the get go, whether you think it has or not.

Even in science people have adamantly stood behind things they thought were right with the perspective at hand. Did that always make them right? Hey man, you are either all in or all out...there is no possible way some things could be right and some things could be wrong.

Individual choice? From the 'get go'? Are you mad as well as delusional? Those in the church that showed individual choice at the 'get go' were put to death by their hundreds of thousands! This still happens in Islam today. Stoning for adultery, amputation for crime etc.etc.

Individual choice....wow. I mean really. wow.

Science has progressed purely because they have been able to stand up and say they were wrong. When one scientist proves anothers theory incorrect they applaud him and move on. History proves the church cannot say the same thing. In what way can the catcholic church be show to be progressive with its stance on female priests, homosexuality, contraception etc.?

I'm glad to hear that Leeds is not a homophobe, but that is not what the bible nor the pope say. But conveniently we can now apprently ignore the bits of the bible we find distasteful at will

How about ignoring the bit where it says god created the universe? The science and common thinking on the subject would back you up.

I think chopping a thieves hand off sends a clear and concise message. As would chopping the cock and/or fingers off pedophiles.

The Quran is actually open for a certain amount of interpretation for the reader. It is clear on many views and those that cast doubt are those that are in question... when that occurs the original followers of Mohammad asked him what to do... After his death those questions went to those closest to him that might know what he would have done or be wise enough to decided. Those answers were collected into groups called Hadith. Mohammad never said you have to pray like this.... instead, he was asked "how do you pray?" When he showed his followers how he prayed they adopted this method. And so it goes with much of that religion. In a word; emulation. The problem today is that some of the interpretations have been taken too far. This is why the religion split which ironically in the Quran it states that it was created as a tool to prevent this and that there will be no more warnings regarding fucking up the word of God after this.

When you take scenarios such as the inquisitions, terrorist bombings and cross burnings what you have at the root are extremists. As much as these men and women want to believe they are doing the right thing in their twisted, frightened minds... they are not. The problem with religion is not God Russ, it is people. People are not infallible. The spark that drives existence is... what it is. The explaining of this phenomena is what people argue about. Its the go team go mentality that leeds was alluding to.

Like it or not, you are just go-team-going for a different team. A team with no Manager or Coach... meh.

In the end... regardless of texts or beliefs all paths will lead to the same place. Life is that journey. Sheep will be sheep and as such need shepherds. Where was this inborn moral compass when you stole those _________ when you were a kid? Where was it when you <insert terrible thing you did>? Are we to believe Russ, that with little or no outer guidance humanity will just act right?



Think about your children and how many times you have to tell them to do the same shit over and over...
"don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor"
"don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor"
"don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor"
"don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor"
"don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor"

then you trip over them again and unleash your wrath...

...now multiply that times humanity and the many many lessons that are of far greater impact on it.

This God that you don't, but millions do believe in... certainly has his work cut out for him.

[UKRuss]

I get you. So, open to interpretation as it is, how about this one:

God didn't create our existence at all.

I guess it depends on how you define the terms "God" and "creation".

If "God" means a man in the clouds and "creation" means pointing a finger and shouting "Alakazaam" then I would be inclided to agree with the aforementioned statement.

If "God" means the entirety of all things we exist within and beyond, and creation means a complex system of all things known and unknown actualizing on numerous different levels, then I would have to disagree with your statement.

Heres where you say "but you dont need religion to believe that". In which case I would agree, but that doesnt mean that religion as a whole is invalid, or that it doesnt contain vital metaphysical elements of truth.

Semantics.

You should however write the gospel according to Donnie. See how far you get with the catholic church with it mind.

This thread was generally about the popes visit to the UK and our right to demonstrate against it. The rest we all know about. I don't believe in god, others do.

Nothing changes.

I've said before many times, I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe, even with the staggering array of possibilities you now suggest to be modern christianity, its when it takes my tax pound and affects my life that I draw the line.

Remove public funding for churches and faith schools and religious men in the house of lords and you can carry on as you please.

[Donnie]

Semantics.

You should however write the gospel according to Donnie. See how far you get with the catholic church with it mind.

This thread was generally about the popes visit to the UK and our right to demonstrate against it. The rest we all know about. I don't believe in god, others do.

Nothing changes.

I've said before many times, I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe, even with the staggering array of possibilities you now suggest to be modern christianity, its when it takes my tax pound and affects my life that I draw the line.

Remove public funding for churches and faith schools and religious men in the house of lords and you can carry on as you please.

Is it fair to say "open to interpretation" and then write it off my responce as semantics? Kind of a cop out if you ask me.

As far as the original thread topic, I get all that, I was responding to the many things you said in addition to that within the thread.

As far as removing funding, kinda sucks when some religious organizations offer certian essential public services...and in some cases are the only local organizations willing and capable to do so. Reminds me of an athiest protest here in the states of a church that was getting funding and provided homeless shelters and other services. Long story short in the end the church eventually had to close down those services. Then homeless people became huge issue in the area and people wondered why? Im not sure if things like that are offered by churches on your side of the pond, but either way its food for thought.

[leedsquietman]

Many religious schools don't have public funding but yet still exist on donations and the spirit of their followers.

Catholic schools actually deserve their funding on merit, because they actually get slightly better test scores than the public school equivalents, in spite of less funding (smaller numbers) and massively less donations through community. For example, the public school across the road received 50 laptop computers from a representative of a big computer company, and had a new basketball court built by a contractor who's children attended the school, while we use 10 year old Imacs and many of our schools are crumbling wrecks. We still test better.

Russ, I call your semantics too. You really have no clue on the teachings and philosophies of the Catholic Church as you don't attend Church, you are just basing things on what you THINK we talk about, you're out of touch on that frankly. The soccer analogy and political analogies fit fine for most modern day believers. Sure, when I was growing up as a kid and even as a teen your perception was more in line, but even centuries old institutions CAN change. We hope for more change after the current Pope is gone. Much of what is written in the Bible and Qu'ran is open to interpretation which is why there are Sunni vs Shia, Protestant vs Catholic, Ukrainian Orthodox etc.

However, you have the right to protest and if you acted on your convictions and actually got out there and DID protest then I have some level of admiration for that. Hiding behind interwebs anonymity inciting vitriol and merely talking about it on the other hand, that's hardly worthy of respect. This issue obviously incenses you and others but as much as you cry about it on this forum, it won't change anything unless you put your words into action.

[UKRuss]

I don't recall saying institutions or people were not capable of change. However, the leader of your church, the man to whom the majority of the catholic world turn to for advice still advocates the things that I find abhorrent about the catholic church.

What you have done is post that you individually and all the people you know, of course, don't bel;ieve in these abhorrent things. perhaps this is true. perhaps it is to pacify those of us who find them abhorrent as you don't wish to be seen as allied with your church leaders. perhap you simply feel guilty about those aspects of the churches behaviour. I can never know that.

However, you and Donnie make assumptions about me which are incorrect. You wish to paint me as someone who learns all he learns about what is going on from the Daily Mail or from watching telly. Not a pro0blem, passive aggressive insuklts are the norm from those who have to maintain the holier than thou attitude on matters they find important to them. oparticularl when they are undeer fire from those that don't.

I have children who attend school. I have parents from that school who i know personally and have who have switched their children to the local catcholic school. I know first hand what they are taught and what their beliefs are. I find them abhorrent and what they teach the children is verging, in my mind, on criminality. This is reality. This is happening now.

on the news last night we had the local catcholics up in arms becasue the council funding for transport for their chikldren to the catcholic coillege 20 miles away is being cut.

Please note that non-faith school attending children get no funding for transport at all.

Leeds, I did not hear progressive comments from those people. I heard vitriolic sanctimonious outrage that their children will have to mix with 'ordinary non-believers' becasue the tax payer won't fund their childrens joyride to heaven.

It is you and donnie that describe a church that is wholly unfamiliar to the UK regardless of whetehr or not you feel you are somehow better than the ordinary catcholic due to your change in views. Therefore it is you that is out of touch with what is actually happening and being taught from the bosom of the catcholic church.

if you real feel strongly about the pope being incorrect on certain issue then why not demonstrate to. You could assist in the change.

Donnie, if you want to start a thread on the definition of 'god' then go ahead. This thread is about the pope, his abhorrent views and the abhoorent views held by the majority of the catholic church. not a cop out on my part, simply not interested in getting into a pointless discussion with a belierv of the supernatural about the possibility of the existence of god.

No matter what your stadpoint you can be assured I disagree on the fundamnetal pint Donnie, does that satisfy you.

Leeds, Faith schools are divisive and encourage the misunderstanding amongst children about their faith and their beliefs not the other way round. While I am not religious ion anyway i think you would have to be cleary deluded not to see that mixed schools that are representative of society as a whole includuing all faiths would encourage a mixed society that it tolerant , fair and inclusive.

Faith aschools are there to encourage the survivial of their beliefs. nothing more. i do not want to pay for them.

[nuperspective]

Faith aschools are there to encourage the survivial of their beliefs. nothing more. i do not want to pay for them.

bingo.

i cant get my head around the cafeteria religion thing, taking the bit you want and leaving the bad. you're in or out.

i also cant equate the earlier comments that religion does good things through schools, charity etc. i work for cummins [a multi-national] and we do charity work for the community weekly. we are all from different backgrounds it not religious. religion doesn't provide anything, given a similar non religious conduit people will still help those in need.

[UKRuss]

Well, for the same reason that believers imagine all atheists are cur from the same cloth, I suppose i can understand it being frustrating for belivers who see themselves as progressive to be judged the asme way.

For me the main difference is that atheism is about not adhering to a code at all, we haven't gone around saying that we are aligned to such and such, whereas the religious do by definition. To then change the goal posts to appease the thinking of the times is somewhat pointless and dilutes the mainstream teaching of the churches involved.

not all atheists spout Dawkins as the be all and end all on atheist thinking. He is of course at the moment the most famous. In fact he is meeting some resistance from within the humanist arena, but of course this is a positive thing in terms of scientific thinking, we encourage it, whereas I doubt the Pope is going to embrace Leeds 'new catholiscism' in any way.

Debate, debate that allows freedom of expression based in logic and reason is what is required, but never available from the religious thinker.

For thos in London you can always pop along to the Ethical society, it's more or less right opposite where I work so spend time there when i can, a nice rainy day in the library there is a satisfying thing.

There is a lecture coming up by a Dawkins sceptic, wish I could get along:

http://www.ethicalsoc.org.uk/spes/node/156

I'd love to see some link s to lectures by Catholics on subjects that challenge the popes teachings. I'd pop along and promise not to throw shoes.

[LoopStationZebra]

all atheists spout Dawkins as the be all and end all on atheist thinking and would totally crawl up his arse and live there if they could because....well.....let's face it......he's the Jesus Substitute isn't he?

fixie wixie foo!

[UKRuss]

You mean, Jebus Substitute, surely.

Life isn't always easy
It isn't always fun
When you lose direction
Your world can come undone
When you're in need of guidiance
And help is over due
You might ask yourself this question
What Would Jesus Do?

If you were at a party
And the host ran out of wine
He'd make some more with magic
And bring on back good times
But in this situation
You couldn't see it trough
He's the son of God
And he shits all over you

You can't do what Jesus can do
You're the King of Nothing, an he's the King of jews
He knows every magic trick, you only know a few
Don't even bother asking
What Would Jesus Do?

Can you heal a leprad?
Or feed the crowd with fish and bread?
Can you walk on water?
Did you rise from the dead?
And did you give your life up
To save humans from bad luck?
Were you born on virgin birth,
Or did your parents... have sex?

You can't do what Jesus can do
He had twelve apostles and no one folows you
When facing a dilema
Let logic guide you through
What kind of dick-head wonders
What Would Jesus Do?

When Jesus was betrayed
And wrapped up all his trust
He used His laser vision
And turned judas into dust
When Lois Lane was dying
Jesus held her in His arms
He flew backwards 'round the world
To keep her save from harm
When Jesus tours the country
In His Rock n' Roll band Kiss
A thousands cheer his music
Even tough it's hit the miss

You can't do what Jesus can do
(Jesus shits all over you )
There are three of Him, and there's only one of you
(And Jesus can fly )
He can cure a blind man, you can't cure the flu
He's a zombie wizard who also knows kung-fu

So next time you're in trouble
Thinking What Would Jesus do
Try not to forget
He's a million, billion, trillion times
Better than you

God gave Rock n' Roll to you,
Gave Rock n' Roll to you,
Gave Rock n' Roll to everyone,
God gave Rock n' Roll to you,
Gave Rock n' Roll to you,
Put it in the soul of everyone.