Ableton You Should Give Something Back To The Loyal Users!

[BoddAH]

I am obviously not a power user but I haven’t had a single bug in 3 months of using Live which is more than can be said about FL Studio and even Logic (Express) or Cubase.

Of course bugs can happen to anybody but my theory is that you have an awfully maintained/outdated/bloated PC who struggles running Live.

Same thing with Windows, I heard so many complaints about Windows since 95 but never really had issues with it myself. Of course if you fuck up your registry and never do any routine system maintenance the story might be different.

I guess it’s much easier to systematically blame Ableton.

[H20nly]

the AMP is surely a step in the right direction, but i don't need the AMP, so for me it would be much more interresting to get the choice too choose one of the existing plugins avaiable, like Sampler, Collision or Operator, that would be really nice move. Ableton should find a way how something like this could be done in a fair way, so that nobody feels their left out.

When this thread started I jumped on you a little bit, because the issue of "give us free stuff for our trouble" has been done many many times on the forum. I realize that I was having a little fun at your expense. Please don't take that too personal.

In one of the other threads dealing with this I believe it was Angstrom who said it best... (I can't find that post but to paraphrase) when he said something along the lines of:

if Ableton give away a reverb or some other item there will be users who say "great" but there will still be people complaining. They will say "i don't need a reverb" ...or said item. Its a no win situation for Ableton... he also said he doesn't envy them in this...

This thread and your posts just made his thoughts manifest. Wise fella that Angstrom.

You've been given something. You've been given that something for free. You've been given that something because of your trouble. You say you're not whining... there are those who would beg to differ, but you got what you wanted, it just wasn't your perfect idea of "something".

My recommendation to you is to be more specific if your going to complain about wanting something at least then we'll know what it is. You're still saying that a free plug will be cool, but there's a lot of plugs out there. Would a master my work with a push of button plug suit you? How about a make an arrangement for me plug?

FYI - Ableton isn't a plug maker so who would they have to purchase or partner with to develop this vague plug that might make you stop and appreciate their efforts?




@ Ableton - Thanks for AMP. I'm looking forward to trying it out. I might knock it later... but I'll at least try it first.

[xzusa8ky]

To H20nly

No hard feelings here, it's only a discussion and not a war, and i think it's nice to hear other users arguments even if they have another meaning.

Kind Regards

[Bizon]

I'm going to get dissed for this, ... BUT IT MUST BE SAID...

This forum is full of whiners.
Bitch bitch bitch, complain complain, whine whine ...

Do the majority of you guys ever make any music or perform?

You must be new to the internet. Welcome.

[glitchrock-buddha]

Not going to read this thread. Just wanted to say that all this "loyalty" talk makes me wanna puke sometimes. What's with a user making themselves out to be someone who's doing a company a favor by using their software? If a product has the features you want, you buy it and expect it to work as advertised. And we're supposed to get rewarded for that?

I'm all for free stuff and I think it's truly amazing when you see developers like u-he putting out free updates with very useful features. Or Native Instruments with the Maschine updates. But I don't understand demanding it based on some idea of loyalty as if you stood by Ableton in their times of need. We all use the software that suits our needs the best with very little thought for the well being of the company behind it.

[Tone Deft]

/fan of the buddha

[3phase]

I've spent hundreds of pounds over the years on Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio, and various plug-ins and guess what? They all had problems and frustrated me. So, I sold those licences that I could and bought Live.

In 3 years of using Live both at home and gigging, it has never crashed on me once. I do have some CPU spiking issues, but honestly I think that is down to my crappy three year old Vaio laptop. The only other software I've used that is as stable as Live is Renoise.

So, if you are having problems with Live like I had with other software, why not do what I did and sell the problem software? Then you wont need to be frustrated anymore.

you have to much money or time..

i would prefer when they just continue with beeing a good program...

for any user,, or at least for people that want to use it on stage.. i ve no problem to do the studiowork with other software.. wouldnt really miss ableton for that..

[Leon Tricker]

I've spent hundreds of pounds over the years on Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio, and various plug-ins and guess what? They all had problems and frustrated me. So, I sold those licences that I could and bought Live.

In 3 years of using Live both at home and gigging, it has never crashed on me once. I do have some CPU spiking issues, but honestly I think that is down to my crappy three year old Vaio laptop. The only other software I've used that is as stable as Live is Renoise.

So, if you are having problems with Live like I had with other software, why not do what I did and sell the problem software? Then you wont need to be frustrated anymore.

you have to much money or time..

i would prefer when they just continue with beeing a good program...

for any user,, or at least for people that want to use it on stage.. i ve no problem to do the studiowork with other software.. wouldnt really miss ableton for that..

I don't have too much money - if I did I would upgrade my laptop. I don't have too much time - which is why when a piece of software causes me headaches I stop wasting my time, and use something else.

I have experimented with a lot of software and hardware over the years and now have a set-up that fulfils me creatively and is reliable. That experimenting wasn't a waste of time or money - for a start it gave me perspective. The hair I lost with Cubase and Sonar puts any issues I have with Live into context!

If I was as frustrated with Live as you are, I would look for a different solution in either software or hardware. Having a creative outlet and actually making some music is more improtant to me than the medium I'm using.

[[nis]]

Dear Nis (Ableton Headquarter)

Thanks you for the response. I am sorry that i can't write that i am happy with the policy of Ableton. But i will try to explain here what i mean.

When i pay for something then i really do think it should work. Ableton have been charging me for "Buggy" updates since i started to use live. I do understand that sometimes something can go wrong, but not everytime? and not over 6 years. Why does the registred users have to pay for your companys bad intern policy? I really don't get it. Why are you charging money for an update that are more than just buggy? Why does the users have to pay for an update, and then have to beta test it for your company when they actually did pay for a working update? I don't wanna pay for version 9 and then have to wait until you guys sort all the bugs out, this should be done before you charge money for it i think. Heres a little example, i am also a registred Reason user since version 1 and i have never posted one post on their forums because it just works, and i do pay any update without complaining because i get stabillity and a really good product, so that's fair. If Ableton had the same policy i would never write posts like this one. And yes i really think that its time for Ableton to give something usefull back to the people who have been living with all thoose issues, and endless beta testings for years, they did buy a product which actually has a good concept but it seems that 3rd party features and other issues are more important than me and other users who thinks and feels like me. Why not give the the longtime users who have been dealing with all thoose issues over years, a free plugin for example as a little "thank you" present for Ableton's bad policy over the years? I would think that's fair to the users who have been supporting Ableton so long, and yes the AMP is surely a step in the right direction, but i don't need the AMP, so for me it would be much more interresting to get the choice too choose one of the existing plugins avaiable, like Sampler, Collision or Operator, that would be really nice move. Ableton should find a way how something like this could be done in a fair way, so that nobody feels their left out.

Kind Regards

Thanks for the elaborate response. As far as stability is concerned, we have made mistakes in the past which clearly led to an unstable product. The amount of complaints in this forum are a clear evidence for this and it is also obvious that some of our customers have lost their faith in the product. However, I think it was certainly not our intention (or "policy" as you call it) to annoy our customers with unstable software or let them be the beta testing guinea pigs. The Live 8 release has gone wrong in many regards, but I think we have learned our lesson and not only spent almost a year to work on these issues (which is quite a financial challenge for such a relatively small company), but also spent a lot of time and energy restructuring the whole workflow in our company, ensuring better inter-team communication and more efficient development and testing. All these efforts will hopefully lead to a more stable Live 8 and avoid similar problems with future versions. We're not done with this whole process yet. There's still a lot to do.

That having said, we will not be able to solve all issues. A bug-free software is an illusion. Especially new releases have bugs. We can try to get it as stable as possible, but it will never be bug free. You mentioned Reason. Reason is indeed an extremely well programmed piece of software. That's desirable for any software company (hats off to the Propellerheads!), but to be fair, Reason is not as complex as Live is and it is not entirely bug-free either. If you had used a particular function which always crashes in Reason, then you surely wouldn't be so happy with it now. Or if your computer doesn't play so well with Reason. Or if Reason would support VSTs and one of your beloved plugin always makes Reason crash. These things happen.

Anyway, we're not talking about Reason, we're talking about the oh-so-buggy Live 8 and you are asking for some compensation for all the trouble you've been through. I think this is a legitimate question, BUT I also think you should be playing fair when demanding such things, so my question is: what trouble have you personally been through that makes you deserve a free instrument? In our email archive I can see that you once had a Rewire crash problem when opening Reason sets. Searching the support forum returns an old rant about Live 5.0.2 not being able to render your sets, but apart from that I can't find any reports about serious issues from you. I'm asking because I want to understand topics like this better, just out of personal interest. Have you really been through such hard times with Live, having bought an almost unusable piece of software, and if so, why haven't you contacted us directly? I'm sure our customer care people would have sorted you out with a refund or at least provided some compensation for all your trouble.

Best,
Nico

[Machinesworking]

@Nico,
Hopefully this won't be took the wrong way. I can't decide for Ableton (as I'm sure you can't either), what route they take in development etc.
What I see as an interested outsider is a company that took on far too many partnerships and spent far too much time on that area of the software while the basic core ended up unstable. I'm an avid Live enthusiast. I do use other DAWs, but mainly to compliment Live, I'm on 7, but I'm still very interested in 8 and the eventual 9.

The software upgrade price went up, and massive new third party and internal add ons were announced, ( Share, Bridge, M4L etc. ).
All the development of those new separate add ons had to be paid for, and during a recession the upgrade price was raised by around $40 with special introductory offers to get you to jump in. Live 8 turns out to be buggy, and I'm stuck on 7 until the very last update. I'm not interested in Suite, I have enough third party plug ins to more than do the job, and in fact they respond to preset changes in Live allowing me to play different instruments and sounds in the same hour long set without getting into heavy CPU use, that Racks won't/don't offer.

I'm not one who wants or needs any gifts from you guys, all I want is Live 9 to play nice with third party VSTs and AUs. All the integration with developers to make your own versions of FX and instruments is great revenue I'm sure, but it makes me wary of what will happen if I upgrade? Will Kore all of a sudden become a chore to use? DJs and laptop performers are I'm certain a large portion of your audience, but what about people who would like to sync Live to a MIDI click coming from a live drummer? IMO that should be a total concern, I know most drummers I've worked with would LOVE this! and people who want to use Live as a host for performance oriented shows in a more "traditional" vein? You know playing a keyboard that's larger than 37 keys and switching sounds to keep it interesting? That focus IMO seems to have been lost in favor of people using Live to add FX to tracks etc.

The core, stable, adding new embedded plug ins that get people who only use Live happy IMO is starting to come across as ignoring the more traditional DAW users, we don't need more DAW features, we need what Live does that others cannot improved upon and stabilized. Make it the Sync King, and the VST/AU host king, improve Session View, keep it stable, come up with some way of diagnosing audio glitches so this isn't a constant point of discussion, and Live will never be usurped as a live performance tool.

Into the ether I know, but hey!

[martinkellogs]

edited

[Ben_Binary]

... I'm asking because I want to understand topics like this better, just out of personal interest. ...
Best,
Nico

This sort of response from Ableton and the fact that you allow an open dialogue on here is gold. seriously.

I'm gonna say this:

Live has the flexibility to allow me to work around most issues I have had. win for ableton.
Ableton is expensive. This raises expectations. And so do programs like Reaper.
When people suggest that I should be responsible for reporting bugs... no.
I would love to work as QA Software analyst for ableton. but you get what you pay for.
My issue with ableton is most easily explained by examining the way that the APC40 was marketed.
I bought one.

My understanding was "The only way to get the red box" & "Ableton branded = ableton supported"
Then you guys bring out the Launchpad... uncool but fair enough.
Then you guys bring out the APC20 ... with note-mode ... uncool but fair enough.

BUT

Why is it left up to users on this forum to write controller scripts that add the functionality for the APC40
that Ableton should have SUPPORTED from the beginning?

But the bigger question is why didnt they SUPPORT Hanz in his efforts ???
>>> check this out: APC40 - Note Mode, 2nd Device Control, EQ Mode & User Modes
or his blog here: http://remotescripts.blogspot.com/

I understand that ableton likes user-driven content and that providing the flexibility
to do this is a great philosophy but it looks like it may be a strategy now.
No amount of disapproving Forum fanboy chin stroking or eye-rolling emoticons can peer-pressure
me into shutting up about these issues. I try to be clear and reasonable about my statements.
I like Ableton. I ? Live. I dont like some of the behaviour I am experiencing from your company.

Inter-departmental communication is not easy in software development.
The balance between creative and logical approaches and personalities can be tricky.
I am happy that you guys sound like you are addressing the communication issues in your pipeline and I hope they get 'managed' out.

[3phase]

BUT

Why is it left up to users on this forum to write controller scripts that add the functionality for the APC40
that Ableton should have SUPPORTED from the beginning?

you are wright with all the questions you rise.. there can be only one logical answers..

They are unableton

[[nis]]

What I see as an interested outsider is a company that took on far too many partnerships and spent far too much time on that area of the software while the basic core ended up unstable. I'm an avid Live enthusiast.

I agree completely. We have overloaded ourselves with too many things at once. I can't say whether these partnerships are bad or good. I like some of them very much and find others unnecessary, but this is just me being an enthusiastic Live user as you are. A DJ is certainly more interested in the Bridge than I am interested in Max for Live. One thing that speaks for partnerships is that they expand the software's capabilities a lot and that we can outsource things where we aren't good at or don't have enough resources for, which is coding softsynths, building MIDI controller hardware in large quantities or programming a DJ software. However, we have clearly had too many of these partnerships at once, which made the quality go down the drain. Not arguing with that at all.

However, what I really don't like are people who keep on bashing the product if they have no good reason to do so. Then it goes on about the bad "policy" of our company, being profit-driven capitalists who aren't listening to their users and whatnot, even when we release free goods, send out coupons or suspend all new developments for almost a year and work on fixing bugs. We wouldn't do this if we were so cruel. We cannot make everyone happy, but we're trying. Believe it or not. And then it makes me sad when I take the plunge and openly discuss this delicate sync topic on this forum, explain where we're good at, where we still have shortcomings and how to avoid them, and eventually getting bashed for every single sentence I say. 3phase insulting me and our developers (have I once insulted him for being a bad musician?), you totally freaking out on me about some sync issue which eventually turned out to be some local problem on your computer (where's your pardon in this rather ugly forum thread?), some alienated users who don't know what/who they can believe or not. Then I'm seeing threads where people complain that Ableton is not very present on this forum anymore. To be honest with you, I've lost the interest in posting here if everything I see is endless arguing about who's wrong and who's right, insults, personal attacks even against our employees (and that's the reason why we won't un-ban Subfunk btw). However, I'm trying to stay on top of it, hence I'm also asking these questions here, because I'm not (yet) convinced that the OP has a valid reason to jump on the Ableton bashing train. I might also want to add that everything I'm saying here is my personal opinion. You guys often interpret this as an "official statement" from an Ableton representative. It's not. I'm just a tech support guy, who's also a passionate user of this software.

Why is it left up to users on this forum to write controller scripts that add the functionality for the APC40
that Ableton should have SUPPORTED from the beginning?

But the bigger question is why didnt they SUPPORT Hanz in his efforts ???

Clearly a lack of time / developer resources. Nevertheless I think the APC40 is a great controller and the default functionality already offers a lot of possibilities, doesn't it? Luckily there are some clever guys who took it to another level. You'll always find things that can be better and we'll surely won't be able to make everyone happy (again). Just look at the mockups that some people posted here. Some want a controller with 5000 buttons, 800 motorfaders, drumpads and a built-in 64-channel audio interface, whereas others just want a button matrix without faders or encoders. Some can't live without transport buttons and PAN controls, others find them rather useless.

Anyway, what exactly do you mean by not supporting Hanz Petrov's efforts?

Best,
Nico

[[nis]]

They are unableton

speaking of the devil...