Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
grossfeld
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Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by grossfeld » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:07 am

hi
my name is Eyal and i am new to Ableton Live but as far as i managed to play with it, it is a great program. I usually work in a television live studio and on an OB van. we are broadcasting live shows and sports. i want to use Live in my studios. i will tell you what i need it to do and please try to tell me what should i configure in order for me to implement it in my set.
right now all of the studios i work with use a great device called “360 Systems- instant replay”. it is an industry standard in radio and tv production. it is fast and the pads are big and it sounds good. another good feature of it is that you can use fader start to trigger the selected clip.
here is a link to this device:
http://www.360systems.com/products_audio.html

the workflow:
the soundman start the show. lets say it is a news show. in this news show we have 4 different subjects to talk about- music, politics, arts and the middle east. every subject has its own music to go under it as a background music. so the soundman program the “360 Systems” first 4 pads with the corresponding music- 1:Music 2:Politics 3:arts and 4: Middle east. the show is starting. he look at the line up he got from the producer and see that he need do get ready with the “music” background music so he press the pad marked “1” and the 360 device is loading it and it is ready to play it. once the fader on the main console is starting to go up it triggers the 360 Systems to play the music under the pad marked “1”. so the fader start is triggers the “selected” music that the soundman selected previosly to item about the music. next, we have an item about politics so the soundman close the fader and press the pad marked “2”. this loads the politics background music and as soon as the “360” fader opens again it triggers the politics music.
i hope you understand this workflow. this workflow is very common in tv and radio broadcasts.

i thoght about buying the Novation luanchPad and connect it to Live. this controller is the most similar to the 360 Systems control surface. I need to make it not just for me. other sound engineers will have to use it so i need to keep it simple and to do it very similar to the 360 System workflow.
the start fader is only a close contact much like a sustain pedal. so i can use it.

i want to be able to set up Live with all the musics i need and to press the pad with the music i need and then press the sustain pedal=open the fader, and Live will start playing the music i selected in loop.

ok, now is the time you read it again :-) and try to tell me how to do it.

thank you for your time.
Eyal

DaffyDub
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by DaffyDub » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:43 am

I'm using LIVE with a launchpad for live sports-tv broadcast.... doing exactly what you describe.
Background music, crowd noise, "dong" sounds for when a team scores and so on.... works like a charm.
I'm running live on a Mac mini!

We used instant replay before...... which is a noisy unit..... i mean - the thing itself has a lot of humming - whereas the audio coming out of it is ok.... but really - the workflow using LIVE is SO much easier !
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grossfeld
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by grossfeld » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:49 pm

WOW! i'm so glad you are using it in tv production. i thought i could make it work. tell me the important thing for me: how do you trigger the selected clip? does your main console start fader is connected to your sustain pedal input of your Launchpad in order to trigger it? do you understand the need of the fader start? is there a key command i can assign to a midi control which tells LIVE to play only the last selected clip? what did you configured in LIVE in order to trigger the clip you just selected with a pad on the Launchpad.

thank you DaffyDub.
anyone else, feel free to share your thoughts about it.

Eyal

Ableton_David
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by Ableton_David » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:13 pm

Hi Eyal,

Both the Novation Launchpad and Akai APC40 and APC20 controllers have preset mapping that allows you to trigger clips without any custom mapping (though you can also map the controllers separately if you'd like). For what you're looking for, you could simply plug one of these controllers in, connect it in Live, and then use it to trigger clips/scenes and browse through the set.

You might also be interested to see how Gary Long, the playback mixer for American Idol, uses Ableton Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3TWKUjiUJA

Lastly, for more information about the Launchpad and APC controllers, check out these links.
Novation Launchpad: http://www.ableton.com/launchpad
Akai APC40: http://www.ableton.com/apc40
Akai APC20: http://www.ableton.com/apc20

Jekblad
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by Jekblad » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:29 pm

the standard launchpad workflow would result in the button press triggering the actual sound. This does not sound like what you want. I understand all your guys being used to the previous workflow, but using the launchpad in this manner will be much easier.

I don't know how you would get the launch pad to "select" a clip WITHOUT firing it. I don't think I understand why this way is better for you....

The 360 is a dedicated unit that your team knows how to use. Using a laptop with software will only bring more complications, although the workflow will be much better. If it's just you running the unit, i'd say start using ableton tomorow. If you need to train a bunch of people on how to do this... I might feel differently.
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DaffyDub
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by DaffyDub » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:47 pm

well to tell you the truth - I launch clips manually
we recently got a new mixing desk - a studer vista 5.... I haven't yet figured out how to launch clips via the desk... so I hit the pad on the launchpad!
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grossfeld
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by grossfeld » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:26 pm

So you undestand my problem? i dont mind that after i press a pad the clip will fire, thats the way the 360 Systems works. but i need it to play the selected clip again from the start of the clip as soon as i open the fader=press the sustain pedal or something like that. is there any way to do that?
Daffy- you are so lucky to work on a Vista desk. i can only dream on it.

do you think of a work around or a trick? something that the program did not suppose to work but a trick will do it? i dont know- record enabled one open midi track and make the sustain pedal play the last recorded note? or different trick that works.

thanx
EYal.

outershpongolia
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by outershpongolia » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:37 pm

grossfeld wrote:ut i need it to play the selected clip again from the start of the clip as soon as i open the fader=press the sustain pedal or something like that. is there any way to do that?

If I'm understanding your question correctly then you would need to use Launch Mode : Trigger , so that the clips get re triggered on the second press instead of turning off.

posssu
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by posssu » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:41 pm

grossfeld wrote:So you undestand my problem? i dont mind that after i press a pad the clip will fire, thats the way the 360 Systems works. but i need it to play the selected clip again from the start of the clip as soon as i open the fader=press the sustain pedal or something like that. is there any way to do that?
Daffy- you are so lucky to work on a Vista desk. i can only dream on it.

do you think of a work around or a trick? something that the program did not suppose to work but a trick will do it? i dont know- record enabled one open midi track and make the sustain pedal play the last recorded note? or different trick that works.

thanx
EYal.
The launchpad works so that you can have four pads instantly play the clip. This means that when you press button "1", the clip just plays and all these clips are ready to play in any order you wish. There's no loading when you work in Live.

So you basically have the fader down in the beginning and when you get a go from the producer, you hit the pad number 1. The music starts and when you lift the fader, you hear it. When you go to second part, you fade out the music. If you don't stop the previous clip, the music keeps on playing while fader is down (basically this doesn't matter), but you can also stop it with another button on the Launchpad if you want to play if safe. Then when the next part of the program starts, you just hit the pad number 2 and lift the fader after hitting the pad. The music you chose starts from the beginning. If you need to launch the same music, you just hit the same pad.

What you need to configure in Live is this:

Image

This forces Live to always start the clip instantly when you press the pad, instead of waiting for sync (which you don't need in this project).

As for the four different musics, you just create four audio channels and have the four musics in the first clip slots on each of them. These clips show as lighting buttons on the Launchpad. Or you can also midilearn them manually to four separate buttons if you wish and have a fifth button for stopping all the clips that are playing at the moment.
Last edited by posssu on Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Juhana Lehtiniemi - Film composer with Ableton Live

Jekblad
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by Jekblad » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:48 pm

posssu wrote: I maybe didn't understand correctly, but why don't you just launch the clip again by hitting the pad?
^this

it made sense to me how the american idol ran his rig, fire the clips and the fader controls volume. This is bad for you?
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grossfeld
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by grossfeld » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:50 pm

hi, thank you for answering my post.

in the case of a very large production like American Idol, that you have a dedicated man who in charge of the background music you can leave it for him to manage with first launching clips and than bring up the fader. in my case i have so much to deal with in the show- talents mics, VTRs, IFB, intercom communication and so on, the workflow i told you about is the workflow i found on every tv studio. i can not launch a clip and the open the fader. i need it to be close to me- under my fingers. i want to have a fader marked "LIVE" and when i need to shoot the music i only need to open up this fader along with other faders i have to close or open.
DaffyDub- you probably understand me. is there any creative way to do that?

maybe i should explain the meaning of start fader- in many broadcast consoles, radio or tv, you would find a micro switch that sits on the fader. this micro switch is there to general purposes, like triggers players like the 360 Systems or to open an "ON AIR" sign, or to close the control room speakers in a radio station or any other purpose. i need it to push a button in LIVE that plays the last selected clip.

thanx
Eyal

DaffyDub
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by DaffyDub » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:11 pm

Well... like I said - I hit the pad - while flying the fader... and listening to intercom which is constantly puking out messages from the producer and the PA... and while on air I also have to set up for next match etc....
Typically we have 3 or 4 stadiums with OB-Trucks, 2-3 EVS, 2 Airspeeds, up to 6 microports, some isdn lines, som skype connections, some editing rooms patched directly into the desk and some speaker boxes...... you know the flow.... no time for breathing, eating, pissing or anything else.... just constant stress and running back and forth to fix things while on-air....

As they say over here : there are only 2 diseases in this line of work.... ulcers and divorce :twisted:

Best of luck to you
and if you find some ingenious solution to launching clips via fadermoves or whatever - PLEASE POST IT HERE ;o)
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posssu
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by posssu » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:24 pm

This is just an idea, but if you know the exact volume level you need for the music and don't need to change it, you can create a midi clip (so called dummy clip) which makes the fade-in. You then map the button on the Launchpad for both "play music" and "fade-in" so that when you hit one button, the music fades in and keeps on playing until you hit the fadeout-button. The same for each music, one button to fade-in, one to fadeout. But in this case you can't change the volume level of the fader. However, you can then have all the music channels go through one channel in the mixer which gives you master control.

This would give you: 2 buttons per music (one to start+fade-in, one to fade-out) and one master fader for everything in case you want to ride the volume on the music.

The fades are independent from the music, so you'll need separate midi-clips for both fade-in and fade-out. They control the fades and in addition to mapping the Launchpad buttons to these clips, you map the "fade-in" button to the related music clip. The midi-clips automate the channel volume fade-in and outs on each channel.
Juhana Lehtiniemi - Film composer with Ableton Live

grossfeld
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by grossfeld » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:22 am

well, tell you the truth, posssu, i did not understand what did you mean. please try to read my needs again and than rewrite your method.

i think Ableton team should consider adding a "play the selected clip" button so i can asiign a key command to it and then succeed in replacing the old 360 System device. if they will do that simple button and even make it in 2 modes- loop and normal, i believe all of the broadcast industry, which is huge will buy LIVE and a launchpad to their studios. in that way the transfer between the 360 and LIVE would be transparent for the users and the new features that would be there for the production would be a great advantage over the 360 Systems.
there are many programs on the market that are use for instant replay in sports and news but LIVE has so much to offer to that industry that they must consider this simple button "Play the selected clip -normal" and "play the selected clip -loop"

RajahP
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Re: Ableton Live in live TV or radio production

Post by RajahP » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:39 am

David Abravanel wrote:Hi Eyal,

Both the Novation Launchpad and Akai APC40 and APC20 controllers have preset mapping that allows you to trigger clips without any custom mapping (though you can also map the controllers separately if you'd like). For what you're looking for, you could simply plug one of these controllers in, connect it in Live, and then use it to trigger clips/scenes and browse through the set.

You might also be interested to see how Gary Long, the playback mixer for American Idol, uses Ableton Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3TWKUjiUJA

Lastly, for more information about the Launchpad and APC controllers, check out these links.
Novation Launchpad: http://www.ableton.com/launchpad
Akai APC40: http://www.ableton.com/apc40
Akai APC20: http://www.ableton.com/apc20
Thank for the Video... Please more of this stuff. INSPIRING.

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