Coping Automation from Arrangement to session view.

[Alextronica]

So I've been moving my songs from arrangement to session to preform live.

Can anyone help me with how to move Automation in a dummy clip in arrangement into session view?

I thought it would be easy but I think I'm missing something cause when I move the clip none of the automation I've drawn in moves over.

I've tried starting over in session view, drawing the automation in a Clip envelope but the envelope isn't functioning like the automation (it isn't moving any knobs where I have the automation controlling it)

Am I missing some trick here? or work around?

Thanks for the responses.

[fx23]

the free rotation from session to arrangement and vice versa, and autom to session flaw once more spotted for the 279693652th time...

yes that's a :!, PAIN, only solution is to manually select each curve one by one and make "copy envellope", go to session,
select the clip, select the automation and paste the automation. when you do this from years for X parameters on Xtrack
that's ;:!;,! insane boring everyday, and drive me crasy more and more.
an aweful waiste of time and intuitiv. especially when you wanna quick tweak pots and build blocks in session.

if no rewrite then atleast please abes make a :!;:;! script to automate such process:

_A)copy paste all automations from selected timezone to session same clips, same parameter same timezone.
_B)reset arrangement automations to full scale so that relatives modulation become absolute automations in session.

that would make a good workaround waiting the rewrite, that doesn't seem that complex to achieve a batch no?

[pedroschki]

This definitely needs sorting, it's something which stumped me recently, until a quick glance at these forums informed me it wasn't possible. A major stumbling block....

[Alextronica]

Thanks guys

I think I found my answer. I'm just gonna have to draw in automation in session view. The hang up I had there, I just figured out, is I need to turn the knob being automated up so my automation will actually work.

Cheers!

[zee verkawound]

Not to take anything away from anyone, but I used to want something similar to automation in session view, but why really? For me, it's now easier to first improvise in session and then simply get used to working in arrangement view.

For instance, what are you hoping to accomplish by copying automation from the arrangement view into the session view that you couldn't accomplish by simply just staying in the arrangement view?

It's VERY eye opening to realize (at least it was for me) that the arrangement view is just as easy and is honestly a thousand times more capable than session as far as tweaking is concerned. You can even just get used to toggling between views to play with devices in session as you may be more used to doing, as you record your desired automation from session into arrangement.

as I tried to state, this is NOT to state you are wrong by any means, just to offer an alternative perspective. Arrange is TRULY where it's at with respect to Live.

[fx23]

For instance, what are you hoping to accomplish by copying automation from the arrangement view into the session view that you couldn't accomplish by simply just staying in the arrangement view?

well there are many cases users don't want to deal with arrangment. if you are in arrangement, you don't benefit at all
of the ability to dynamically change a clip, you are then locked in a 'linar pre-sequenced stuff way of playing live'. this
is completely different from session. This is fine for working on a track, but not for live performance aim/taget.

Also session has the big advantage for ('rough tests) to quick test wich clip go
well wirh what, what clips will go nicely together, in wich order should i put my "parts/scenes" ect, that totally
disapear if working in arrangment where we fall back in traditional linear boring daw sequencing.
that's also definitely not the primary aim of a 'live performance' session live concept suggest.

the way I see it, is session is the starting point to quick build "blocks", test them together, then when a nice structure
has been found, transfert to arrangment for a finer work over time. this seems the pretty logic suggested live power.

However it's here wher it's a total fail from a very long time now:

A)you can't quick build your blocks directly moving a param and rec it's automation, so you have to DRAW it, or work
in arrangement, booth cases are totally anti productive methods, totally illogic with live global 'simple workflow' concept.
And in this case B, where working in arrangement to rec the curves could nicely do the job, here as well it's flaw, cause
then you are Fuèç(d to get back from arrangement to session, if the final goal was to play live,
mean trig different clips/scenes in a non linear way as the soft tittle suggest.there is no other way than manually selecting
an automation, go to clip, choose param, copy automation, this for each parameter of each clip of each track!!!!!!
yes we are in 2K10 and at the 8th vesrion of live...
That's totally insane and that last for way too long now!!!


also to summup and make it simpler:

if you simply check the ableton logo itself, it clearly suppose you can make booth, going from/to
but in fact convertion is total fail and myth since live's debut.

[zee verkawound]

For instance, what are you hoping to accomplish by copying automation from the arrangement view into the session view that you couldn't accomplish by simply just staying in the arrangement view?

well there are many cases users don't want to deal with arrangment. if you are in arrangement, you don't benefit at all
of the ability to dynamically change a clip, you are then locked in a 'linar pre-sequenced stuff way of playing live'. this
is completely different from session. This is fine for working on a track, but not for live performance aim/taget.

Also session has the big advantage for ('rough tests) to quick test wich clip go
well wirh what, what clips will go nicely together, in wich order should i put my "parts/scenes" ect, that totally
disapear if working in arrangment where we fall back in traditional linear boring daw sequencing.
that's also definitely not the primary aim of a 'live performance' session live concept suggest.

the way I see it, is session is the starting point to quick build "blocks", test them together, then when a nice structure
has been found, transfert to arrangment for a finer work over time. this seems the pretty logic suggested live power.

However it's here wher it's a total fail from a very long time now:

A)you can't quick build your blocks directly moving a param and rec it's automation, so you have to DRAW it, or work
in arrangement, booth cases are totally anti productive methods, totally illogic with live global 'simple workflow' concept.
And in this case B, where working in arrangement to rec the curves could nicely do the job, here as well it's flaw, cause
then you are Fuèç(d to get back from arrangement to session, if the final goal was to play live,
mean trig different clips/scenes in a non linear way as the soft tittle suggest.there is no other way than manually selecting
an automation, go to clip, choose param, copy automation, this for each parameter of each clip of each track!!!!!!
yes we are in 2K10 and at the 8th vesrion of live...
That's totally insane and that last for way too long now!!!


also to summup and make it simpler:

if you simply check the ableton logo itself, it clearly suppose you can make booth, going from/to
but in fact convertion is total fail and myth since live's debut.

Man, I feel your frustration, but I honestly cannot grasp what you are attempting to do. I am not under the impression you are doing anything wrong, but it does seem like you would like to work in nothing but session and that is just not the way the program is designed to work.

I still don't understand a limit of dynamics in arrangement. If anything, there is a MUCH great ability to express dynamics in arrangement withing a given track/clip. That's simply because you have so much more control available to you with respect to commands.

I apologize. I am certain that it's just me not understanding you correctly. It's times like this I wish I could just sit down next to you and see what you are having difficulty with.

One thing that REALLY helped me is when I started using the browser in Live a lot more. I am able to create "pools" of clips that can be used a million times if needed. The key is naming and grouping them so that they are there like colors on a pallet to choose from.

I also never use midi in arrangement mode. Strictly audio. Software is frustrating, but it becomes less so when you adopt a working philosophy that agrees with the program's limitations. It's kind of like wishing we could breath freely underwater without additional gear to do so. It just ain't happening no matter how easy it is to imagine.

My biggest hang up with the program is it's lack of 64bit support. Crashes beyond 1.4-6 gigs of ram is downright ridiculous. To me. However you may never ever run into a need for more, which I do everyday. We all have our underwater scenarios to deal with. Good luck!

[fx23]

yeah not everybody have same workflow for sure,some won't mind this, especially more if you work with audio/seq in classic tracks purposes,
im supposing you make more sequenced/audiotracks, or play pre-sequenced song linear then when live performing?
mean you only work in arrangement, even for live performance? here I would only work in session indeed, more fore 'livesets' than songs, as live is supposed to be at start, a 'LIVE' oriented software, with also classic sequencer daw ability.

it's totally true the arrangement is much more adapted for fine editing over time the stuff, but was more referencing
of the final step: not a sequenced one bloc song but a modular"live set" build for a live performance.

as more working with midi/live, let's say we start a track from blank. we want to record a midi sequence we re playing live while
tweaking some pots, the simplest possible normal request. so ok our only solution is do that to arrangement actually, let's do this
..
but then when wanna later play the live set, i mean not just press play and let the song running in arrangement, trigg when i want the beat, the bass, change various melody clips in live, with their associated curves, this is absolutely not possible in arrangement, cause by nature being a linear editing, not a 2D matrix like session where you can trig various parts, wich is much more modular in terms of possibilities/choices in true live purpose performing , in arrangement you can only play around with cuepoints, that's very limited.


so if we have worked in arrangement, we are then locked to arrangement, and cannot
play 'live' in session.
if we work in session we can't have the natural workflow of rec the automation to cip.
booth do not communicate as they logically aim to be,
and live is supposed the best locical/workflow daw isn't it?

[ze2be]

After I got the APC, Arrangement is where its happening. Midi clips in Session is used as kind of like arpeggiator/rhythmic presets. (only velocity and note lenght) These midi clips are kept as presets in my archive. Due to Lives limitations, we can only record it in Arrangement, so there goes. But if I want to save a midi file preset with automation, I have the clip in Arrangement, when I save the track.

Its linear, but so is usually the end product of music. However, Session automation would be crazy cool..

If I was to prepare a live set now, I would record group loops to audio in Session for almost everything. And rather mute a part, if I want to play it solo with midi. Kind of a multi channel DJ loop performance, with synth.

[fx23]

let me disagree automation to session is nothing to be compared with rendering wavs with collapsed then automations.
then no later editing/live tweaking is possible and there are lots of various other problems. that may be a way for some,
but not for me, not to mention it's also a pain to render allclips/reimport destructive VS what would be a transparent
bidirectional move simply draging..

i can't beleive any long time user / live performer can't see that as a major failure.

as a simple exemple muting a track is generally harsh vs muting a midi where the reverb/fx will make tails.
Man might want animate live reveirb tail on with an fx as been automated, and so on..

the problem i see is more and more users went a bit sheepy saying ok stop whinning,
we work like that and don't hammer that anymore, gives us more daw bla bla.
because after a such 6 or more years wait they don't beleive anymore..

autom to session would raise live workflow to unbeleivable level, trust me. and has to come now!

this has to be sorted out.

[robbiePie]

I guess the question to ask is if this is being looked at and worked on. To those who say music workflow is linear, the whole point of live is to escape that mindset. The fact we have to mix down to audio to get any automation tweaks for playing in session is nuts.

This is something that should have been worked out long ago.

That said, it is possible to use dummy tracks that record and play back via IAC on mac or midi yoke on pc, but its a bit of a routing headache for something that EVERY SINGLE USER of live seems to expect and is surprised to learn doesn't work.

I don't think this is beating a dead horse. I think the abes appreciates customer feedback...

[Alextronica]

In this case I'm using these Dummy Clips to automate live signals coming into Ableton.

It should be wicked fun when I get it going.

[Matt_SMusic]

Cruising in from 14 years in the future, this is still an issue. Why?!

the free rotation from session to arrangement and vice versa, and autom to session flaw once more spotted for the 279693652th time...

yes that's a :!, PAIN, only solution is to manually select each curve one by one and make "copy envellope", go to session,
select the clip, select the automation and paste the automation. when you do this from years for X parameters on Xtrack
that's ;:!;,! insane boring everyday, and drive me crasy more and more.
an aweful waiste of time and intuitiv. especially when you wanna quick tweak pots and build blocks in session.

if no rewrite then atleast please abes make a :!;:;! script to automate such process:

_A)copy paste all automations from selected timezone to session same clips, same parameter same timezone.
_B)reset arrangement automations to full scale so that relatives modulation become absolute automations in session.

that would make a good workaround waiting the rewrite, that doesn't seem that complex to achieve a batch no?