How To Compensate for loudness when using sends?

[audiolemon]

Hello,

I am sure this can be done but I cannot find it. Is there a way to compensate for the extra loudness going to a master when I increase the sends to a return channel. When I play live if I use the effects I often start clipping the master. I put on a limiter to stop this but it can sound not very good sometime. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[cotdagoo]

there's a few topics on what you're looking for.

here's one to get you started - http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27462

[audiolemon]

Thanks cotdagoo,

I did see the Magic Send when I was searching but this is essentially a toggle function 100% wet or dry so you cannot do slow increases that will introduce the effect whilst simultaneously compensating for loudness on the master.

I have used a single MIDI CC to control both the send knob and volume fader of a track. The volume fader was inverted (and it's range limited) so that as I turned up the send the volume fader was reduced. This works in Post Mode. The problem is this way is not sensitive to loudness.

I have a vague recollection of a method that uses the auto-pan effect. I was hoping somebody might remember.

Thanks

[JuanSOLO]

Maybe using the chain in a rack somehow might "trick" better volume curves when crossfading sends. You may have to do some double mapping etc, but you might get better results.

[fx23]

i would use sidechain compression.

you pick the return track as sidechain input and the compressor is on track, group or master so that it will lower
sound when sends are feed.

[JuanSOLO]

What ShelLuser is saying works, but if I were to do this I would be dissatisfied when I twist halfway through and the signal has a dip in volume. So if your doing slow eases it has it's quirks.

I am thinking you could trick that volume dip somehow by using a gain in a rack on a chain that increases the volume just in the middle, or something of that nature. There are probably a few ways to do it if you just experiment with ideas.

[ze2be]

I like the freedom to have the sends operate normal as dry/wet fx. If you are concerned about your volume, why not keep track levels down? I use -8db on all tracks, but many use -12 or even -16. I never peak 0db on the master. You can set a return bus track for all the sends to. This way you get controll of the sends volume, pluss you can monitor solo/mute them all in a snap.

[Tweaking Knobs]

in wich way is this default behaviour usefull ?


i mean is fuckin useless, who in the world would want that effect to happen ( adding volume to your send )


is there a logical reason this is this way ?

[JuanSOLO]

in wich way is this default behaviour usefull ?


i mean is fuckin useless, who in the world would want that effect to happen ( adding volume to your send )


is there a logical reason this is this way ?

YES. Personally I use sends in a DUB fashion, or for toggling outputs to things like beat mashing stuff. For example, I set most of my tracks to "sends only" and run them to a clean return (no FX) and bounce the other sends to delays or reverbs periodically. And delays and verbs are generally all wet. Or I toggle between clean and maybe something like the Finger. If I want to "blend FX" I use AudioFX Racks and set up chains and map stuff accordingly. Some people set up compression tricks on returns, some use them for SUB outs into PA's etc.

Although it's funny how much time I do spend trying to skirt Live's default functionality.

[audiolemon]

Thanks All for you ideas and help,

- Sidechaining
- Be careful with my gain staging
- Run audio straight through the sends and use dry/wet
- Magic Sends

All of these have there own problems but using them together should help. I could try to make an envelope follower in max and have it spit out MIDI cc's and use these to turn down the input channel. Might work. In the studio this is no hassle really (just be careful and automation) but live I tend to go a bit mad on the fx and it can be damaging to P.A.s.

I am almost sure there was another way that used AutoPan in some tricky way that I cannot remember. I will have to mess about with it later.

[Dexes]

Has no one suggested using an effects rack and Utility Plugin???

Say you a reverb on your return track set to 100% wet.

Group it to an audio effects rack and add a utility plug in a new chain. On this toggle the Phz-L & Phz-R buttons so the signal going through this cancels the original signal going strait to the master.



Now as you turn up the send more of the original signal is canceled, so if you turn the send up all the way, the dry signal is muted. This basically turns the send knob into a wet/dry one.

[Dexes]

I see. Didn't follow the link but the OPs answer:

I did see the Magic Send when I was searching but this is essentially a toggle function 100% wet or dry so you cannot do slow increases that will introduce the effect whilst simultaneously compensating for loudness on the master.

made me think something else was mentioned there as the way I put it is not a 0/100% toggle, but allows for slow adjustments.

[audiolemon]

Has no one suggested using an effects rack and Utility Plugin???

Yes, the first responder did; he mentioned the thread in which the guy who originally came up with this idea explained this trick.

Ahh I must have missed it when I was looking through the post.

Thanks very much. This is the one I was after.