Audio/MIDI latency sync issue

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Tue May 17, 2005 11:12 pm

Okay, I've finally figured out a way to phrase my problem so that it make sense.

I am using an iBook G4, Firewire 1814, and the latest version of Live.

I have 3 hardware synths connected to my iBook through a Firewire 1814. The MIDI signal is sent through the 1814 to the synths, and the audio signals from the synths are sent back into the 1814. In Live, I use one MIDI track per synth sending data out, and one audio track per synth receiving audio.

This setup works great, because I dont need to have a hardware mixer for now. The only problem is that I also occasionally use audio drum loops. When I have a synth being triggered from a MIDI track and a drum loop going at the same time, there is apprroximately a 30 ms delay for the hardware synth. This sucks because the drums and the rest of the track are never perfectly synced up, and it sounds really messy.

I've been using a workaround though... Just putting a 30ms simple delay on the channels with drum loops and other audio clips. It works, but it's ghetto.

Now for four questions:
1. Is there a way to adjust the MIDI latency independently of the audio latency?
2. If not, is there another way to get the audio triggered from MIDI to sync up with audio on the computer?
3. Is it a calibration issue? Did I miss a step?
4. Is the incoming audio latency being cause by my 1814?

Thanks in advance. I will sing you a song and post it if your hint helps me solve this problem.

mr-e · Post by **mr-e** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:23 pm

i have a similar problem:
i can delay audiotracks with a 'simple delay' plugin so they run in sync with vsti's but i can not delay miditracks
--> my external hardware always runs ahead of my audio and vsti tracks

i hope in the future ableton will contain 1 of these:
- a midi delay effect added to the midi FX
- full midi in/out support for vst's so we can make our own midi delays

For now I'm trying to construct a workaround by routing all my audio and midi from ableton to bidule , adding the necessary audio/midi delays in bidule until everything is in sync. But there doesn't seem to be a way to rewire ableton slaved to bidule without the use of virtual midicables that would just create extra latency between ableton and bidule

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Sun May 22, 2005 8:30 pm

This setup works great, because I dont need to have a hardware mixer for now. The only problem is that I also occasionally use audio drum loops. When I have a synth being triggered from a MIDI track and a drum loop going at the same time, there is apprroximately a 30 ms delay for the hardware synth. This sucks because the drums and the rest of the track are never perfectly synced up, and it sounds really messy.

Are you sure this is not because you're monitoring through you soundcard? I've never had midi delays this big...

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Mon May 23, 2005 5:45 pm

I'm having the same problem. This doesn't occur when someone is playing "live" alongside midi stuff because the live musician hears the monitored output and naturally plays in time with the other Live tracks.

The problem manifests when sending midi notes to both softsynths and external gear at the same time. Both instruments are triggered at the same time but the extra latency of the external path back into the sound card screws up the timing. Play some arpeggios on a softsynth and a hardware synth at the same time and you can really hear this. This just works in Cubase because Cubase can calculate the latency of the external route back through the card and compensates for it.

I tried fiddling with the latency offset in Live's preferences but this doesn't seem to help.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:18 pm

Guys... You're leading people to believe that this is a midi timing issue, which it's not! This has to do with you monitoring through your soundcard. Even the fastest soundcards with the lowest sample buffers gives you a flam/chorus effect when monitoring through them while also hearing the dry signal.

And yes... Cubase (and maybe others) have workarounds to allow external fx to be part of the signal chain. But facts remain and you can't really blame Live for introducing midi delay. Because there is none! The delay is in your soundcard...

Regards,
Mikael

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:22 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:And yes... Cubase (and maybe others) have workarounds to allow external fx to be part of the signal chain. But facts remain and you can't really blame Live for introducing midi delay. Because there is none! The delay is in your soundcard...

The bottom line is that using external instruments triggered by midi in Live is a huge hassle because you have to manually compensate for the delay.

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:38 pm

So the issue is with my audio interface! I suppose that's both good and bad news. Good because it means Live isn't the problem, bad because I'll have to find another solution, like buying an external mixer rather than run the audio from my hardware back into my computer. Cool, thanks.

Do any other programs have a control to compensate for this delay? It would be really neat if the next version of Live did.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:05 pm

The bottom line is that using external instruments triggered by midi in Live is a huge hassle because you have to manually compensate for the delay.

No! That's not the bottom line. I have no problems what so ever with syncing my external gear with VST instruments or Live's audio, since I don't monitor through my soundcard. Monitor through an external mixer or see if your soundcard supports zero latency monitoring (my STAudio does) which means you monitor through the soundcard without introducing latency but can't use VST fx in "real time" on that channel. FX can be added to the recorded audio afterwards, of course.

And please - get to know your gear before putting the blame on Live.

Cheers,
Mikael

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:19 pm

It looks like the Alesis Multimix Firewire mixers all have ZLM. I think I'll upgrade to one of those when they come out.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:44 pm

the_planet,

When I look at the specs for the 1814 it says: near zero-latency hardware direct monitoring. Maybe there's a good enough way of solving it with your present gear. Read up on how to configure the soundcard. That might be your solution...

Cheers,
Mikael

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:57 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:
The bottom line is that using external instruments triggered by midi in Live is a huge hassle because you have to manually compensate for the delay.
No! That's not the bottom line. I have no problems what so ever with syncing my external gear with VST instruments or Live's audio, since I don't monitor through my soundcard. Monitor through an external mixer or see if your soundcard supports zero latency monitoring (my STAudio does) which means you monitor through the soundcard without introducing latency but can't use VST fx in "real time" on that channel. FX can be added to the recorded audio afterwards, of course.

And please - get to know your gear before putting the blame on Live.

Cheers,
Mikael

What does it have to do with monitoring? If there's a delay coming into the soundcard I don't see what difference it makes.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:01 pm

What does it have to do with monitoring? If there's a delay coming into the soundcard I don't see what difference it makes.

But there is no delay coming into the soundcard.

The soundcard is introducing the delay.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:20 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:
What does it have to do with monitoring? If there's a delay coming into the soundcard I don't see what difference it makes.
But there is no delay coming into the soundcard. The soundcard is introducing the delay.

Right, but if the recorded audio I wind up with in Live is delayed then I have a problem. I don't really care why or how, but if I have to manually compensate for it it's a real hassle.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:43 pm

Sorry, I'm still on the original topic here. Of course it's a problem that your gear is causing you problems. What got me started was the fact that people reading this thread might be lead to believe that Live had some midi delay - which it doesn't.

It strange, though, that your soundcard is introducing delay on recorded material. That has never happened to me. And I can't help you out there...

Cheers,
Mikael