Richie hawtin and Live

[supster]

Honestly!!!

I STILL haven't heard one of this dude's sets, I've only ever heard the name Sasha mentioned "around" for the last ten years or so

- but this old dog's tired and lazy. I never had an opinion on him until I started reading this forum.
.

um. this kind of statement is so breathtaking i dont know exactly how to respond, except to say: i'm disappointed dude,

you're a regular on this forum and seem so intelligent and reasonable otherwise. do you have any idea what you are saying here? i wont embarass you by paraphrasing .. i dont need to.

again: "this dude" has been around for 20 years, huge catalog, inspired thousands, has remixed and produced probably 10x what you have ever done in your life,

... and he is STILL doing great sets with the software YOU use ... and paving the way for YOU to be more accepted in the future.

umm .. in fact .. Sasha is very well known for doing .. breakbeat.
hahhaha ... of all things mr montrealbreaks. he was spinning a lot of breakbeat in recent years, was well known for this.

you are into breaks .. in montreal of all places? they have a huge dance scene up there. dont they? Stereo? do you ever leave your house?

you know - DJs were never doing all that much at shows anyway - beatmatching is not rocket science - theres a lot more to phrasing, mixing and track selection. but this is not a debate about what a DJ is worth.

if you dont like what they do you dont have to - millions of people do ... like i said earlier ... if you are bitter and jealous that you are doing more with live without the recognition, too fucking bad:

we didnt make the rules - tell us the secret of how to change the rules of celbrity and recognition and musical taste so we can all be massively famous with our avante-garde PA's ...

PS (90% of the people in your audience dont know and plenty dont care wtf you are doing up there behind that screen. they either are dancing or they are not, period)
.

[anonymouse]

I saw Sasha play in Singapore last year.

Can't say he really got the crowd going. He seemed to be using Live to some degree, but it didn't do him any favours in getting things groovey.

In my view, if you are playing a club it doesn't matter if you are just playing your iPod directly into the PA system, using Live like an octopus with a 120x1000 cell als and 5 x UC33es or plinking away on a grand piano with a mate twiddling with a machinedrum

- if it sounds crap, who cares how you made it. if it sounds brilliant, who cares how you made it. It is a club and people want groove and the authentic flavour of the genre you push under your DJ brand; complex technique on the spot is not required, let alone originality.

All this talk of who is using the most complex Live set-up is ridiculous. Personally I don't know why a lot of people bother to use Live to perform with. Just make good tracks at home (with Live if you prefer) and then use "proper" simple DJ beatmatch & effects software to deliver it. Focus on the lighting Rig or even projected video if you want to - just keep things simple, robust and manageable.

The fact that you are crouched over in your booth shivering with fear, in a cold sweat for 3 hours to compose something engaging, flowing, original and perfect in real-time is completely irrelevant to the crowd. Most of them don't even rate it as any sort of achievement. "Making music with computers is easy"

If anyone knows what you are doing, they are probably also Live users. And judging by the posts of many people on this forum regarding Sasha, they are a bunch of begrudging critics, who can't help themselves but be negative.

My new futuristic vision for performing, integrating Live, is to get a real bass player, a real electronic drum player, a fender rhodes player and.... oops. I think that is called a band. Not very revolutionary.


Last year I strongly considered buying my own vestax vinyl cutter to cut my own compositions on to, so as I could "DJ" them properly. Considering the expense, that is a bit ridiculous. But there is something very attractive about the tactile nature of needles and vinyl..

I'm sure there are a few on the forum who are true maestros using Live live ... by which I mean taking tiny clips, midi and loops and constructing/improvising fresh music on the fly, live.
That is excellent, I would pay extra to attend a gig if the genre you are creating is also something I like.

However, for those who have filled an als with a library of 3 and 4 minute wavs copied off CD and vinyl and are using Live as a DJ multitracker and beatmatcher, Your use of Live is irrelevant as a performance gimmick - it is only a small step away from WinAmp.

[smutek]

and in Sasha's case, this fucking parasite isn't worthy to step on any stage without a gallows on it.

[montrealbreaks]

and in Sasha's case, this fucking parasite isn't worthy to step on any stage without a gallows on it.

Ok, admittedly that was overstatement.

[montrealbreaks]

The fact that you are crouched over in your booth shivering with fear, in a cold sweat for 3 hours to compose something engaging, flowing, original and perfect in real-time is completely irrelevant to the crowd. Most of them don't even rate it as any sort of achievement. "Making music with computers is easy"

That's what pisses me off. There's no appreciation for effort or quality in many electronic genres of music. I see guys like Richie Hawtin as being a vanguard of progress, as well as being one of the few I can point to when the critics pipe up and say "hey man - this DOES take time, effort, creativity; blood, sweat and tears". When I saw that screenshot of Sasha's, I immediately got quite pissed - I'm being associated with this guy, and I don't like it one bit. It's guys like him that give the rest of electronic performers a rep for beting lazy and hitting "play". I get REALLY riled at that, because here in Montreal there's dozens of DJs who do something similar, while dudes like me and a few of my friends, who put a mountain of effort into what we do get lumped into that same "lazy digital DJ" pigeon hole.

For me this issue is VERY personal. If that irritates some on these boards, sorry, but I'm sick of defending what I do as not being child-like simple.

[montrealbreaks]

um. this kind of statement is so breathtaking i dont know exactly how to respond, except to say: i'm disappointed dude,

... and he is STILL doing great sets with the software YOU use ... and paving the way for YOU to be more accepted in the future.

That's where we disagree. He is not paving the way for my acceptance, he's belittling what I do to others who think that all there is to Live electronic performance is summed up in screenshots like that. I was accused of being a performer who could "push play and walk away". This guy's hype gives fuel to the fires of people who would look at a set I took a year to construct and perfect, and say "big deal". That's VERY personal, that's very irritating. That's the main reason I haven't had a gig in almost a year, and this belittling attitude towards live performance really raises my ire.

umm .. in fact .. Sasha is very well known for doing .. breakbeat.
hahhaha ... of all things mr montrealbreaks. he was spinning a lot of breakbeat in recent years, was well known for this.

you are into breaks .. in montreal of all places? they have a huge dance scene up there. dont they? Stereo? do you ever leave your house?

Just because I love a certain genre of music doesn't mean that I'm a starry-eyed celebrity following punter. Yeah, I like breaks, and I produce them, but I don't listen to commercial music. I know enough music producers personally that I only listen to friends and acquaintances nowadays. I haven't bought a commercially released CD (or pirated music either!) in over three years. EVERYTHING I listen to is guys like us - people I met online, people I meet around town, old friends, etc. Free music exchange between peers (read under-appreciated producers)- it's my way of finding new music to listen to. So, the question of "Which celebrity DJ is playing what" is totally irrelevant to me.

Same for going out and dancing - I will only go see locals, I wouldn't pay the premium to go to a place like Stereo to dance to the exact same music played by overinflated superstars when instead I can hear music just as good in Blizzarts (a small bar on St Laurent), in a more intimate setting with local performers.

PS (90% of the people in your audience dont know and plenty dont care wtf you are doing up there behind that screen. they either are dancing or they are not, period)
.

That's part of the problem - no appreciation for effort. If I can download two dozen tracks, put 'em on an ipod, plug it into a PA and walk away, but then Hype the shit out of myslef as "revolutionary and super-fuckin-duper", then isn't that a little hypocritical?

So, no I don't know Sasha - but I've SEEN the complexity and effort that went into his Live set, and I've READ his hype, and I've been associated with his mediocrity.

[MrYellow]

That's where we disagree. He is not paving the way for my acceptance, he's
belittling what I do to others who think that all there is to Live electronic
performance is summed up in screenshots like that.

Yeah I have to agree..... Sure the press releases might be good for those
that were born yesterday.... Letting people know that yes computers can
play music files.... In-case they didn't know already... but anyone else will
look at his shit and think that's all we all do....

Rock up to a gig with Live.... "Oh you use Live, I've heard sasha uses
that.... All you do is throw in a few tracks and tweak the delay send from
time to time.... learn to beatmatch bitch"

-Ben

[montrealbreaks]

Rock up to a gig with Live.... "Oh you use Live, I've heard sasha uses
that.... All you do is throw in a few tracks and tweak the delay send from
time to time.... learn to beatmatch bitch"

-Ben

I have heard almost exactly that;

Club manager: "sorry, we only book REAL DJs here. Digital DJs don't cut it".

me: "but I'm not a DJ! I compose my own music... You heard the demo, right?"

Club manager: "Yeah, it's good, great. But you're not doing anything if you're only going to use a computer."

me: "Actually, it's pretty involved, I use Ableton Live for my sets and-"

Club manager: "That's even worse, that's the one that beatmatches for you! Learn to mix pal and then come back".

[smutek]

and in Sasha's case, this fucking parasite isn't worthy to step on any stage without a gallows on it.

Ok, admittedly that was overstatement.

Overstated yes, but also hilarious. I can't wait to say that to somebody - "You guys aren't worthy to step on any stage without a gallows on it.

- I will only go see locals....I wouldn't pay the premium to go to a place like Stereo to dance to the exact same music played by overinflated superstars when instead I can hear music just as good in Blizzarts (a small bar on St Laurent), in a more intimate setting with local performers.

Dude, Montreal seems so f@cking cool. I have been wanting to get up there for Mutek for the past three years, but every year something happens with my wifes job - she has to work that week and can't get out of it and we end up vacationing in Ocean City instead (cheesy over crowded beach resort that I have been going to since I was 1) I just got a car like 2 days ago so next year I swear I will drive up myself.

I occasionaly check out the Epsilon Lab site and just the existence of crews like that makes me want to come up there to live. I came to Montreal when I was a teenager of about 15 or 16 - (that would be about 19 years ago ) and the thing I remember more than anything else was coming out of a subway or train station or something and seeing this dude setup on the side doing a street performance with a synth of some sort - singing and playing some new wave type shit - and it totally blew my mind.......

It seems like such a great town for arts and music.

As far as Hawtin goes, I don't really care about Techno, and even less for minimal techno. The sound either drives me batty or bores me. That said, I would be genuinely honoured to look over that man's shoulder for five minutes, and to thank him afterwards.

I absolutely love techno, particularly minimal stuff. And I am absolutely head over heels about the funky/quirky/zany stuff coming off m-nus these days. I'm a fan of Richie Hawtin and he has been one of my bigger inspirations for a while now. He always seems to be moving forawrd and doing new shit. Pushing boundries.

As gay as it may sound, the only reason I bought Ableton was because Hawtin was endorsing it. I while back there was an interview on this site with Hawtin and he was pumping up Live - I had no idea what the hell it was or what it could do other than the fact it was geared towards live performance. At the time I was using reason but I just had to had live. Knowing that the wife would not go along with the purchase I just said fuck it and put it on my Apple credit card without consulting her. And I am so glad I did. (I didn't get in too much trouble.. )

As far as Sasha goes, it is easy for me to jump on the hate wagon because I don't like progressive house. And I have a tendency to not like performers/artists/dj's who are so well known. If I can ask 10 people and 8 of them know what I am talking about chances are I am not into it. There are exceptions, but for the most part that is how I am. My wife says I am a snob, but thats just the way I am.

The benefits of Sasha endorsing Live are that maybe a bunch of kids who are inspired by his music and mixing will hear about Live and jump onboard and experience the same pleasure that I have over these last 2 1/2 years of using this software.

I am hooked on Live enough that I do not care whether it is considerd a "serious" application, if anyone has never heard of it, or if everyone and their mother is using it, I'm just stoked to have all of this potential here. Although - if everyone in my town starts giggin with live in two years I will be that dude saying "I've been using this software since version one....."

That's a real drag about that gig in that club. There are a lot of us here I think who instinctively strive to stay away from the main stream, including mainstream underground, to the point that we may miss oppurtunities because we refuse to "give in" and play what everyone is playing.

My advice is fuck that guy at that club. Stay true to what you do and ignore the frustration that comes up sometimes. Make your own scene - and it sounds like you already have one or at least the network in place to get somethiing bumping going. Start your own crew/collective, net label, throw your own parties. Make your own scene.

In the late 80's early 90's my friends and I, frustrated with how comercialized skateboarding had become, we just dropped out of the "scene" and created our own. we didn't buy the video's and magazines from skate shops, we made our own videos and magazines. we even cut our own decks out of blanks from a company called naked skates and did our own artwork on them. It was a great time.

Even though a few of us were definitely good enough to go sponsored amateur and in one case even professional it never happened because we were total old school "roots" skaters and we gave not a flyingshit about anything but our crew and skateboarding. Not that we were arrogant or dicks, we just dropped out and did our own thing and it was extremely gratifying.

See the example I am trying to make?

Anyway... we seem to have gone a bit off topic as this thread was originally started as a discussion about how RH is pushing boundries and how we can continue to move forward with our own work. Somehow it turned into another Sasha fest..... (thanks adam Jay )

[montrealbreaks]

Dude, Montreal seems so f@cking cool. I have been wanting to get up there for Mutek for the past three years, but every year something happens with my wifes job - she has to work that week and can't get out of it and we end up vacationing in Ocean City instead (cheesy over crowded beach resort that I have been going to since I was 1) I just got a car like 2 days ago so next year I swear I will drive up myself.

Hey amigo - if you need a place to crash here, drop me a PM.

Yeah, back on topic - richie Hawtin. I haven't seen him play live (again, I support locals before superstars) but that said...

I bought two cds of his, Musik and Plastikman-Consumed. They were both the sort of thing that I just didn't "get". For me, because his CDs were recorded and I didn't experience him live, I am left with an aesthetically poor impression - I stress asethetic only, which is ultimately subjective...

I dunno, maybe his other CDs are more "my style", I haven't checked yet. For me, if it doesn't have an emotional vibe (I mean funky or chill or aggressive but not euphoric or robot music) then it doesn't really hit me.

Maybe if I were into psychotropic substances I would "get" richie hawtin, or maybe he's just too "up there" for me to understand. Anyways, What I'm saying is that his CDs don't really do him justice, and I plan to see him the next time he comes to Montreal - just to learn, just to see what's up with how he manipulates sounds. From what I understand, Richie can make something amazing out of almost nothing - a skill that a lot of techno guys have in spades.

In breaks, I use a lot of "meat" to cover the bones of what I do, and I guess you could argue that it takes more creativity to create a minimal track than a full chunky fat roller. Your self limitation in minimal composition becomes it's own virtuosity.

I look at guys like Richie Hawtin, -9, Aural Power Toys and Ali Khan (the last three are techno producers I know from Winnipeg) as kinda like the Jimi Hendrixes or Joe Satrianis of Electronic music - technically skilled and forward to the point of alienating the unknowing.

[AdamJay]

I bought two cds of his, Musik and Plastikman-Consumed. They were both the sort of thing that I just didn't "get". For me, because his CDs were recorded and I didn't experience him live, I am left with an aesthetically poor impression - I stress asethetic only, which is ultimately subjective...

Consumed specifically, is unlike any other release Richie has done.
personally its my favorite Plastikman title. But it really does require a headspace to "get it". I'm not saying you need to do drugs. Certainly i've acquired this headspace by simply being up for about 40 hours and not able to sleep. at that point the CD certainly "Consumed" me.

but i have to say, the best way to listen to Consumed is with a doobie and a pair of headphones.

its like eating Chicken Mole' for the first time, but in Mexico City. You just can't have it anywhere else in the world after that.

[anonymouse]

It is very interesting to understand what drives other people in this.
I have zero interest in producing techno or abstract electronica, or entertaining a crowd with clubtastic forgettable bpm-driven synthsample candy.

I'm happily burdened with an oppressive range of influences; some obscure, some cheesy, some fresh and edgy. my techno, my garage, my detroit, my Bukem, my Craig, my dub, my ninja tune, my tru thoughts, my warp, my dub, my zeppelin, my janes addiction, barrett, bon scott and miles. whatever, there is so much enlightening beauty yet to be discovered in old records and new artists that haven't even released yet.

I've enjoyed DJing - which I have only done in a downtempo (70 - 110bpm) environment; but I enjoyed it because I wanted to hear the music I was playing; I didn't really care too much if people didn't totally dig it; but was happy that they did. I just had to invade their head for a while and was always very happy to tell them which tunes were which, share the names of great tracks and albums or even on occasion be able to say that a track they liked was actually my own.

But I am not a Live user in order to ever play live anymore. I just want to write and record; striving for something timeless, ever-poignant and filled with every influence I've ever had, chemical and musical and otherwise.

It strikes me that Live users (and many hooked into this whole DIY music phenomenon using other apps) may primarily be either "groove doctors"; cooking up beats and groove for a comtemporary club atmosphere (whatever the genre) or abstractists, mushing together eclectica into thoughtful ambient moody works of expression, deliberately avoiding the cliches of clubland..

I've kind of found my way to my own personal flavour of enlightenment; I'm manically driven to gain the skill and restraint to get the music in my head recorded. I'm hoping it wil be timeless and valuable when I achieve it, but there is so much enjoyment in even trying, it is impossible to give up.

All of this is highly subjective, of course.

So, squabbling and bitching about Sasha, Tiesto, Richie Hawtin, Judge Jules or DJ Boy George really is ... bland, pathetic, uninspiring, puerile, petty and extremely unimaginative to say the least.

Battle with your ability to make music, but don't waste your time squealing and shrieking like a little sunburnt pig about those who make a living as a DJ until you've achieved whatever it is that you want to achieve.

If anything, should your goal be to DJ, then you've a lot to learn from those who have been successful.

[smutek]

Hey amigo - if you need a place to crash here, drop me a PM.

Thanks man, just may take you up on that one of these days.

[scot7y1]

Dude, Montreal seems so f@cking cool. I have been wanting to get up there for Mutek for the past three years, but every year something happens with my wifes job - she has to work that week and can't get out of it and we end up vacationing in Ocean City instead (cheesy over crowded beach resort that I have been going to since I was 1) I just got a car like 2 days ago so next year I swear I will drive up myself.

Hey amigo - if you need a place to crash here, drop me a PM.

Yeah, back on topic - richie Hawtin. I haven't seen him play live (again, I support locals before superstars) but that said...

I bought two cds of his, Musik and Plastikman-Consumed. They were both the sort of thing that I just didn't "get". For me, because his CDs were recorded and I didn't experience him live, I am left with an aesthetically poor impression - I stress asethetic only, which is ultimately subjective...

I dunno, maybe his other CDs are more "my style", I haven't checked yet. For me, if it doesn't have an emotional vibe (I mean funky or chill or aggressive but not euphoric or robot music) then it doesn't really hit me.

Maybe if I were into psychotropic substances I would "get" richie hawtin, or maybe he's just too "up there" for me to understand. Anyways, What I'm saying is that his CDs don't really do him justice, and I plan to see him the next time he comes to Montreal - just to learn, just to see what's up with how he manipulates sounds. From what I understand, Richie can make something amazing out of almost nothing - a skill that a lot of techno guys have in spades.

In breaks, I use a lot of "meat" to cover the bones of what I do, and I guess you could argue that it takes more creativity to create a minimal track than a full chunky fat roller. Your self limitation in minimal composition becomes it's own virtuosity.

I look at guys like Richie Hawtin, -9, Aural Power Toys and Ali Khan (the last three are techno producers I know from Winnipeg) as kinda like the Jimi Hendrixes or Joe Satrianis of Electronic music - technically skilled and forward to the point of alienating the unknowing.

Get your ableton arse over to england!! I have read so many of your posts on here and tbh you are the man along with adam! I don't know if you have heard of circus/chibuku?? well these are englands best club nights and they encourage acts and dj's that push the genre forward. They have no music policy apart from DJ'S THAT IMPRESS and the crowd really do appreciate new acts.

http://www.circusclub.co.uk/forums/

check them out, they have just been given best club in the uk. the guy you need to speak to is rich. I would love to see a real ableton act over here!!

[mike holiday]

people danced to milli vanilli
before they got exposed