OT - Cheap Mics and Human Rights

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:33 pm

Alright... This has been on my mind lately...

We're all aware of the transferance of lots of manufacturing of electronics and other goods to China over the past decade. I'm sure most of our home studio rigs and whatnot have parts and units that have been made in China. It's just about unavoidable. In some cases the quality of the gear has taken a dive, in other cases, such as Mackie VLZ mixers, it's pretty much impossible to tell the difference between the US and the China made units (sorry, former Mackieoids).

But that's not what this post concerns.

Last week the United States government issused a formal and rather stern public complaint directed to the Chinese government to change the means by which they value their currency rates. In a nutshell- the value of the Chinese equivalent to the dollar - the yuen (I think) - has not been adjusted in 10 years. The US dollar, the euro, etc. all fluctuate to help balance the global economics struture of, uhh, the world.

The problem is the yuen has gotten a lot stronger against the dollar, but its value does not reflect this. And as we all know, as a partial result, a US dollar is now worth 50 cents in England. Bill Gates is worth 24 billion in Seattle, and 12 billion in the Liverpool.

But here is where the real delima lies for me. The Chinese government has very little respect for human rights, not to mention a hideous environmental record. For example, the whole prosecution Falun Gong members, etc. So while it's all great and fun that we can buy cool R0DE mics with Chinese capsules for a small bit of cash, at what expense?

Are we unknowingly aiding a government that is mistreating its own citizens?

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:19 pm

The Chinese government has very little respect for human rights, not to mention a hideous environmental record. For example, the whole prosecution Falun Gong members, etc. So while it's all great and fun that we can buy cool R0DE mics with Chinese capsules for a small bit of cash, at what expense?

Are we unknowingly aiding a government that is mistreating its own citizens?

well, if'n it's geopolitical discussion you want--

The US gov't has selectively and hypocritically cried human rights fouls until they have devalued the concept, to the sheer and utter detriment of all of humankind.

Just today I'm reading where it may not be possible to take photographs in public places in the US because of post-911 security concerns.

Another place this prohibition was popular was in East Berlin, and similar security concerns were cited as the reason.

One argument might be that the Chinese people are indigenous to their country, if they want to despoil their environment, let them-- and of course that is a fallacy because "they" are not represented even as much as US citizens are in the governmental bodies that weigh the well being of organizationa/corporate-like entities against the well being of the individual.

Hi-falutin rhetoric aside, on the other hand, if you give someone X amount more money than they had previously, aren't you helping that individual out, if that someone is a worker in a factory that produces goods bound for overseas, and giving them a little more leverage against the systems that oppress them?

[edit] but it is an interesting dilemma-- the value of something, the price one would pay, and the wage one is paid. If things get cheaply produced at the expense of an overall global "lowering of the bar" for wage earners, then the proporitional cost doesn't change. So if a Mercedes Benz 500 series type car gets produced in China for $20,000, but the wage earning population that can afford $20,000 automobiles has shrunk in your export market because of currency valuation issues, then you're not going to sell enough of them (or anything else) to make up your loss, because of course in reality you are operating at a loss when your currency is fictionally valued.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Mon May 23, 2005 9:02 pm

if you give someone X amount more money than they had previously, aren't you helping that individual out, if that someone is a worker in a factory that produces goods bound for overseas, and giving them a little more leverage against the systems that oppress them?

I'm no expert socio-economic dude, I'm an audio dude, BUT, the problem here is that when a communist run factory gets an increase in orders for Behringer UB502s, the Chinese factory worker who gets paid 5 cents a day doesn't get a raise.

computo · Post by **computo** » Mon May 23, 2005 9:12 pm

Of course, you are supporting major corporations by purchasing their products.

The major companies are international corporations, including Guitar Center/Musicians Friend (basically the Walmart of the music world) Mackie does all assembling in the US, but all of the components come from far worse places than China. These companies buy chemicals and parts for other corporations, who own mines and factories all over the world. Mining much more dangerous and volitile chemicals than Coal. But Mackie mixers are FAR better than most lower priced competitors...the construction and pre's are just much much better than almost any other brands...maybe Allen Heath being the only comparable mixer.

Basically, all you can do is try to learn how to do things yourself, so you dont have to work with materials that have been bled on.

And move to computer based music, that will keep the hardware production down.

computo · Post by **computo** » Mon May 23, 2005 9:19 pm

its so much deeper than that, dude.

There are a lot of international trade issues involved, and CHina isnt the worst offender. the main problem is that Indentured Servatude is IN, and in a big way. Every country is being exposed to have huge rings, in South America, The Far East and all over Africa. Its human slavery, its not communism. This is Big business trying to support itself in a crumbling economy that they created. You'll have to stop voting and move to the mountains if you want to escape the machine that is enslaving them.

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Mon May 23, 2005 9:37 pm

Computo, your insights are informative, but:

You'll have to stop voting and move to the mountains if you want to escape the machine that is enslaving them.

Come on! I don't want to escape the machine, I want to... uhh... build the machine? No, I want someone else to build the machine, I just want the whole machine to be, uhh, I don't know... nicer!

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Mon May 23, 2005 9:54 pm

Sales Dude McBoob wrote:
if you give someone X amount more money than they had previously, aren't you helping that individual out, if that someone is a worker in a factory that produces goods bound for overseas, and giving them a little more leverage against the systems that oppress them?
I'm no expert socio-economic dude, I'm an audio dude, BUT, the problem here is that when a communist run factory gets an increase in orders for Behringer UB502s, the Chinese factory worker who gets paid 5 cents a day doesn't get a raise.

yeh, I don't know a whole lot about it either. I do believe that the factories are not communist run, but they are run in "commercial zones" by tycoons which are probably not amenable to giving raises either, but who may hire more people to meet the demand at the same low wages.

Also, in the US, if you get a raise but the cost of the gas you use to drive to work goes up %50, you didn't get a raise.

But, yeh, a "nicer machine" would be, well- more nice. Competition is what makes for cheaply manufactured goods of a quality not quite the same but somewhat like the more expensive goods of the same kind. But what is needed, a global agreement on "a living wage" for fulltime workers?

China, other places, US have this in common: you can work 40 hours a week and not make enough to live-- that is, not afford a decent place to live, food, furnishings, clothing, heat/cooling, hygenic products, and healthcare. Even where there is a minimum wage, that does not mean a living wage in many places where people are required to work at minimum wage.

So all those things, add in the cost for some of the things you need to be employable in most places (phone, transportation) and some cost for an activity to keep from becoming utterly depressed/insane. Then add some for reasonable taxes. That's the minimum living wage for that part of the world. 40 hours a week should get you at least that.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:25 pm

computo wrote: Basically, all you can do is try to learn how to do things yourself, so you dont have to work with materials that have been bled on.

And move to computer based music, that will keep the hardware production down.

where's your computer from?

If you want to be a political consumer - and who doesn't - buy Elektron or Clavia gear - designed and assembled in Sweden. It would set you back , but at least you know that the workers who made the damned thing make a de facto minimum wage twice as high as in the USA - which is one reason why there are practically no poor people in Sweden, or the rest of Scandinavia.

Andreas - hypocritical political consumer. Typing on a Chinese IBM thinkpad.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:36 pm

Name one manufacturer that doesn't use parts assembled in the Far East under less than acceptable conditions.

Go on.

-Paws

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:52 pm

The Chinese government has very little respect for human rights

yes you can buy an american microphone, but are you sure human rights are respected by the American government ?

Are you sure Rode's employees are not treated as well as a factory worker in the US, keeping the differences of lifestyle in perspective ?

Regarding the US dollar, opinions differ, the US are also seen responsable for the current state of the dollar as a maneuver against China's rapid expansion.

Some also think that pouring money in a country under development is going help the people being more educated, and able to communicate worldwide, which is how "democracy" as opposed to "dictature" has more chances to develop.
Even if your typical Chinese worker won't get a raise this year, it will eventually happen. (Will American workers get a raise this year ?)

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon May 23, 2005 11:16 pm

noisetonepause wrote:Name one manufacturer that doesn't use parts assembled in the Far East under less than acceptable conditions.
Go on.
-Paws

You mean "manufactured", not assembled, right?
..but while we're at it, define "less than acceptable conditions".

...we buy the damned products!

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Mon May 23, 2005 11:28 pm

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:20 am

Money is wierd.

The value of money was originally tied to a quantifiable asset in the past. For instance Church land in Europe, or a bushel of grain in the ancient world. With the advent of the "gold standard" or the "pound sterling" money became valued off of precious metals.

This was an odd development. Considering that Money is an abstraction of value, when it's tied to land or grain it has absolute value as it's basis. But when tied to precious metals, it's basis is also abstract. The only reason gold is worth anything is because we make it worth anything. So, here we have an abstraction of an abstraction as currency - but at least it's based off a tangible substance, held in reserve supposedly.

But with the industrial revolution, money became increasingly tied to another, less tangible abstraction - time. One hour of labour is worth so many units of currency. This is the labour market.

Naturally this is a problem now... Before, based off of land, commodities or metals the value of money was constant. Now, different people's time is worth different values in the labour market.

I mean, what is a dollar truely worth? For many north americans, it's about 12 minutes of your life - that's five bucks an hour. But for Mr. Moneybags, his time is worth a lot more. And for a factory worker in Viet Nam, a dollar is measured in days if not hours or minutes.

Plus, time itself is a human creation; it's an abstraction of the decay of energy...

All that has to happen to destroy this abstraction of an abstraction of a variable basis is for society to say "nah, it's not worth that anymore." We're living on an economic house of cards, ready to blow over at the slightest provocation.

That's scary. But even scarier for somebody working in a factory in China or Viet Nam.

Is the current world population creating a surplus of labour, driving down the price of time? Or is a pool of consumers and a creation of economic activity? I'm not an economist, I'm just speculating.

adhmzaiusz · Post by **adhmzaiusz** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:45 am

montrealbreaks wrote:Money is wierd.

The value of money was originally tied to a quantifiable asset in the past. For instance Church land in Europe, or a bushel of grain in the ancient world. With the advent of the "gold standard" or the "pound sterling" money became valued off of precious metals.

This was an odd development. Considering that Money is an abstraction of value, when it's tied to land or grain it has absolute value as it's basis. But when tied to precious metals, it's basis is also abstract. The only reason gold is worth anything is because we make it worth anything. So, here we have an abstraction of an abstraction as currency - but at least it's based off a tangible substance, held in reserve supposedly.

But with the industrial revolution, money became increasingly tied to another, less tangible abstraction - time. One hour of labour is worth so many units of currency. This is the labour market.

Naturally this is a problem now... Before, based off of land, commodities or metals the value of money was constant. Now, different people's time is worth different values in the labour market.

I mean, what is a dollar truely worth? For many north americans, it's about 12 minutes of your life - that's five bucks an hour. But for Mr. Moneybags, his time is worth a lot more. And for a factory worker in Viet Nam, a dollar is measured in days if not hours or minutes.

Plus, time itself is a human creation; it's an abstraction of the decay of energy...

All that has to happen to destroy this abstraction of an abstraction of a variable basis is for society to say "nah, it's not worth that anymore." We're living on an economic house of cards, ready to blow over at the slightest provocation.

That's scary. But even scarier for somebody working in a factory in China or Viet Nam.

Is the current world population creating a surplus of labour, driving down the price of time? Or is a pool of consumers and a creation of economic activity? I'm not an economist, I'm just speculating.

wow im astonished of the wisdom in this

you must be a chomsky fan

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:44 am

adhmzaiusz wrote: you must be a chomsky fan

No I'm not, but my girlfriend is - she's a linguist.

I don't think very highly of him personally. Which is odd considering what I wrote above, it does sound like Noam Chomsky - though I am much more "right" than he is in most things.