Who uses presets?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:52 pm

leedsquietman wrote:You would know a thing or two about a lamer's attitude ... :mrgreen:

Look - I agree with you in part - if I never heard a trance super saw epic lead or a frigging 'hoover' sound again or a T-Pain autotune vocal, it would be too soon - but this is generalizing.
sure i know some things about lamers. everybody that dont likes them does...

here what wiki knows about them. when this dont applies to you i know another term that would suit better..but i am not allowed to use it on this forum...


Lamer is a jargon or slang name originally applied in cracker and phreaker culture to someone who didn't really understand what he or she was doing. Today it is also loosely applied by IRC, BBS, and online gaming users to anyone perceived to be contemptible. In general, the term has come to describe someone who is intentionally ignorant of how things work.
The term is derived from lame. A lamer is widely understood to be the antithesis of a hacker. While a hacker strives to understand the mechanisms behind what he or she uses, even when such extended knowledge would have no practical value, a lamer only cares to learn the bare minimum necessary to operate the device in the way originally intended. Thus, a lamer is usually indistinguishable from someone who is too lame to understand why something works even if they wanted to. A lamer's attitude is summed up by the phrase, "I don't care how it works, just that it does".
The usual definition of a lamer is someone who acts lame. That could be using tactics that are generally accepted as overpowered, "camping" (another gamer term) which means lying in wait all the time without necessarily accomplishing anything useful, jumping around with no purpose. In fact, almost all negative gaming terms fit under the term lamer; the exceptions are terms that apply to newcomers or players who are bad at playing.
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sporkles
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by sporkles » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:01 pm

3phase wrote: sure.. the typical anti preset guy that barfs extra loud..
Image

Anti preset guy tries to keep it quiet, but, alas... Any little noise can cock up anti soft synth guy's hardware modular tuning.

ewistrand
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by ewistrand » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:24 pm

If the preset works in what I'm doing- sure, why not? Why reinvent the wheel if you don't need to?

I do demos for some designers. I did a demo tone for biomechanoid's Massive Retaliations soundset; he couldn't even recognize the presets I used by the time the tune was done. Automation can go a long way in covering up those presets that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb.

ew

UncleAge
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by UncleAge » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:17 pm

leedsquietman wrote:No 'sound designer' has released a record which wasn't some long winded piece of self-masturbatory garbage since the 1990s either. And this pretty much just echoed the Wendy Carlos's and Vangelis's of the world but with digital sounds as well as analogue. This has been made worse by people jerking off with controllers, thinking that people give a damn about their 30 minute improvised 'cutting edge' APC40 jams, most listeners tune out after 45 seconds ...
Amen.


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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by esky » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:18 pm

Ok guys, here is my arbitral verdict in this case:
It totally depends on the music you are listening to: You think a consumer of David Guetta's latest single is interested in sound design ? I don't think so, people are interested in his delivering of a catchy melody, drums with solid oompf and maybe an outstanding voice. Now think about the latest album of Brain Eno on Warp Records. If he was using presets all over the recordings we would say...well, nothing friendly. We expect an outstanding sound design from this guy and some surprises too. And maybe the upcoming album by Boards of Canada...: We want their fingerprint sounds (discussed in a threat this week) and atmospheres that made them so outstanding, with a large effort on using special methods to create them.
Sometimes it's very important to create your own stuff and sometimes not so...
So...don't fight guys...instead have good sex with your girlfriend or with your boyfriend or...who ever...

fx23
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by fx23 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:43 pm

i have to agree with esky.

leed it's not true that there are not great sound design since 90. hopefully some Invent the preset you use and reinvent new sounds.
see above exemples or i got lot of ex too like autehre, aphex Twin, or lot avant_garde in psytrance scene too (rubix qube, abomination, phatmatix, they all have self invented tweaked sounds i pay anybody to find me the presets).

and 3phaze as usual don't be so rude, if some wanna a classic pluck or saw wav and the classic pluck sound is well designed
(there are few sound that have not thousand synthesis ways to get) why bother for someone who don't wanna to?
should we sample a saw wav to not use a basic saw bass?

(personally im more on sound design than presets, but let everybody make what he wants).

3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:57 pm

fx23 wrote:i have to agree with esky.

leed it's not true that there are not great sound design since 90. hopefully some Invent the preset you use and reinvent new sounds.
see above exemples or i got lot of ex in psytrance scene too (rubix qube, abomination, phatmatix, they all have self invented tweaked sounds).

and 3phaze as usual don't be so rude, if some wanna a classic pluck and the classic pluck sound is well designed
(there are few sound that have not thousand synthesis ways to get) why bother for someone who don't wanna to?

(personally im more on sound design than presets, but let everybody make what he wants).

use all the presets as you want, everybody is using one once in a while.. some more, others less..

But this dont changes a thing that the process of using preset sounds is within the electronic music scene considered as laming..
Thats the undeniable fact. And that i personaly promote that belive system is only for the good of our children ;-))
Try to imagine. in 20 years time still the same music around and you hang with your kids in the same clubs.. like good ol country and western..
Or the writers of the presets will be the new stars.. the one button trancegenerator..
the self fullfilling daw.. the age of the magix music maker..

sorry..in a thread thats is full of people that allmost call selfcreation a retard thing to do,
some harder words fit well to balance it a bit.
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fx23
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by fx23 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:22 pm

hehe
well i totally see your point and i am also usually rude on fake all done preset, fake sequenced livesets, fake djing
or fake turning around same shit sounds we hear in fake 'commercial' retro classic turning around scene, especially when vocoder comes over shitty dummy vocals. I also wouldn't like my son to dance on that in 10 years.

but this will be the same, history repeats itselfs. Nostalgy Vs Experimental
some like this stuff, that's sad but we can't force them to have same 'this is sound' agreement,
persons that like dancing on abba where you might prefer modern speed core acid stuff,

how to decide that one way is better, the way that for us we only hear cheap same presets commercial remixs targeted to be 'efficient' on nostalic people vs 'mechanic psy exp' some wouldn't call it music we love and promote if the goal is to play in town club, not in rave for exemple.

oddstep
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by oddstep » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:45 pm

I agree
Originality is a difficult concept:
using live isn't that fresh, someone else has coded the software, using electronic 4 4 beats is totally played out. focussing on preset use as the indicator of unimaginative music making is simply mistaking a creative decision (I stay away from presets because I don't like the music I make with them) for a judgement on other people (people who use presets make music I don't like).

anyway, I've got too involved in this. its saturday

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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by mholloway » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:42 pm

Nothing new to say here really but, my thoughts anyway:

1. presets are great. they show you what a synth is capable of, they provide inspiration, and often they work perfectly for what you need in a given mix, while also allowing you to tweak it every-which way so it really fits your needs and desires. fun, exciting, awesome.

2. it's often HOW it's used, not IF it's used. if you take a layered, arp'd preset from Omnisphere, hold a note on it, and play back a 4/4 oontz beat behind it and call this "your song" -- guess what, nobody is going to be fooled. your 'song' is crap, you are lazy, and nobody is fooled. 3phase seems to think that people are doing this every day and getting away with it. but c'mon. most listeners know the difference between a SONG (that is, a composition with a soul) and a static series of loops made from a construction kit. Anybody who says "presets make it too easy to write a good song" has never written a good song.

3. when I do sound-design from scratch, it's for one reason and one reason only....wait for it.....it's because I enjoy it! Not because I have some bullshit notion that it makes me better than everyone else. I'll program a snappy synth bass or a layered pad because the process of doing so is engaging and rewarding, and that is that. this is my biggest bitch about the anti-preset guys: they act like avoiding presets and opting for scratch sound-design is some kind of badge of exclusivity and authority. fuck that! sound design is just a fun craft that is deep, complex and rewarding: it's great for some, boring for others, and some others would just rather have a quick-find in a prest library and focus on song-writing and production. are they morons because of it? hell no. really mastering sound design is in many ways a totally separate hobby/interest from songwriting and mixing. it doesn't have to be a primary focus for everybody.

i feel better now.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:13 am

Some good points here, especially point 3 - if you enjoy building sounds yourself from the ground up, that's a good thing, but when you think you're some hot shit because you do this and that it somehow makes you and/or your music 'superior' as a result then no. Also a good point about synth patches which are already beats, bass and arps etc - this has been going on since the Korg M1, people taking these multi layered arps/drums/bass/twinkly little bell sounds that play a tune at the press of a button and just overdubbing vocals and a couple of things on them and trying to claim this as 'their sound' for years, but as you said, most observers will quickly recognise this.

fx23 - also some good points. Although I agree that some of that list have shown innovation in their time, I honestly believe that very little originality is possible no matter how much a genius someone is, because until someone invents a brain module that can reproduce sounds, it's the same notes, chords, layers, instruments and types of sound (i.e. FM, subtractive, wavetable, additive, granular, etc) sounds. And I honestly don't believe anything in the last 5 years has been truly innovative and original - the best you can do is hybrid 2 or 3 styles together which haven't been done to death and be a 'bit less' derivative. Some people seem to think that their long APC jams are something new and cool, but in reality, 95% of them are just as boring as listening to Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson playing a prog rock moog solo for 20 minutes. Great players, but like a lot of the overuse of controllers, self indulgent and boring for most listeners.

And before I come off as some real arrogant jerk, I don't claim my own music is innovative or pushing some cutting edge boundary, it's also very derivative and it sometimes bores even narcissitic old me. I try to do some original things, or blend influences which are not done to death, but it ain't new or original. That's fine though, music can still be great and enjoyable, even if it's all just a blend of recycling old things.
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by Simbosan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:28 am

I think this discussion about <subject1> is getting <adjective1>, why can't we all just be <positive_var1> and avoid all the <negative_var1>?

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3phase
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by 3phase » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:45 am

mholloway wrote:
3. when I do sound-design from scratch, it's for one reason and one reason only....wait for it.....it's because I enjoy it! Not because I have some bullshit notion that it makes me better than everyone else. I'll program a snappy synth bass or a layered pad because the process of doing so is engaging and rewarding, and that is that. this is my biggest bitch about the anti-preset guys: they act like avoiding presets and opting for scratch sound-design is some kind of badge of exclusivity and authority. fuck that! sound design is just a fun craft that is deep, complex and rewarding: it's great for some, boring for others, and some others would just rather have a quick-find in a prest library and focus on song-writing and production. are they morons because of it? hell no. really mastering sound design is in many ways a totally separate hobby/interest from songwriting and mixing. it doesn't have to be a primary focus for everybody.

i feel better now.

-M
so Mr..while your first 2 points are perfectly valid the 3rd is actually only valid for singer/ somgwriters and not for producers in the electronic domain.. that includes all dancestyles even hip hop to an extend..even when this is very vocal based music where a preset sound dont matters much.. however...in the drum sounds and groove atmosphere design theese guys are damn creative usually .. listen to the bonus beats of an old public enemy record and you will hear better stuff than in the most drum libs.. actually theire sounds are part of the most drum libs by now...
So we have to take the Drum/groovedesign into consideration in all dance styles too..

Regarding theese styles your point 3 is false...

first.. sound design is the virtuosity of elecronic music..and groove design and to an lesser extend arrangement is the song writing of a dance track..

most of theese styles even life without explecit melodys or harmonies.. and usually no lyrics.. where is your songwriting here?

So for a big part of electronic music sound design actually is the songwriting.. the place where the emotions are transportet..the atmosphere is created.. the soul of the track.

The groove design is actually the basics that make it function..

This all is not just a fun craft.. a little hobby on the side of music production...

It is the music production itself !!!

ANd the mixing? you just can´t pay a propper mixer in a good studio?? in the clasical studio producer sense it s perfectly ok to higher a guy for the job... thats the fun craft...

except when its part of the sound design.. where we are at the fx presets.. an emt plate simulation? ok..bread and butter sounds and fx are allways ok to use.. that includes the viena lib and alike..
but the tricky dicky space cyclotron echo cascade and hit in your turn to minimal super fat compressor presets?

You call it mixing when using theese? you set the levels yourself? and that ist is?
even the arrangement follows the isntructions of some you tube tutorials?
So you are a mixer than and not an electronic music producer...

are people that do this make morons out of themself?

no...

they are lamers.. but hard to distinguish from morons... the pure amount of theese people that think using presets all over the place is ok makes them look like morons somehow... especially because its so easy to at least tweak a little bit.. theese plugins have even more knobs than any hardware synth would allow to tweak.. people seem to enjoy browsing 1000 presets more than doing some
tweaks themself, that usually get you faster to your goal..
In case you have a goal and are not hunting for ideas by browsing presets.. any sound holds the info how it wants to be played in it allready.. so you ae browsing not only sounds.. you are browsing ideas... your own ideas? do you really play ? or just the intentions of the preset creator?
Usually easy to decide.. have you heard that line before somewhere? with a very similar sound? than its not your idea :!: ...

And as usual..morons in vast amounts are dangerous...
There are actually voices that speak loudly about removing copywright protection from the electronic dance geners because there is no own compositional invention in big parts of it.. generic music... sorry guys..

when you use presets to write classical songs its ok..but than the general midi expander is ok too.. and you wont need the space cyclotron amen break whatever preset...nd especially not browsing thru thousends of them.

Or you do it as a hobby... than ist of cause ok too.. but for real electronic releases?

no.. not ok..

Any sound holds an info how to play it within it allready.. except you brush a factory sound against that direction and really play something extaordinary with it.. you well might use a preset once in a while..when it just fits too good and you have created own content with it.. but to build whole tracks on them?
Sorry, that IS actually really lame..
Sound design dont takes much time, you still can use your preset arrangement template than.. with the breakdown bla bla here and there.
Sound design Is actually the fun part of a produktion nobody should miss, but its no extra..
Not so long ago the presets was so dreadfull that nobody dared to use them in own productions anyway..
That they are good now is rather a curse than a gift.. It´s on the user to decide how much to rely on them.

But you cant change the rules and declare preset use as totally ok and normal and pretending to be electronic music producer in the same time... The rules and standards of the game are set by the hackers not by the lamers.. so everybody using presets will have to live with the lamo stamp.. in the end of the days it has become rather a sport than an art.

See it as real sportsman that participate on an international online game.. and try to imagine how much fun such a game is when 80% of the gamers are lamers... tendency rising..
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mholloway
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Re: Who uses presets?

Post by mholloway » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:53 am

leedsquietman wrote:The record buying public don't buy records based on any of the following points

whether presets were used or made from scratch
which instruments were used
which DAW software was used
whether it was analogue or digital
who produced, engineered or mastered a record
(in most cases excepting some geeks) which label it was released on

I

Well said; this really sums it up. The only people who argue this stuff are the people making the stuff; the non-musician consumer doesn't give a crap about any of it.

Fever Ray -- who is considered this ultra hip, artsy, intelligent artist -- used an immediately identifiable Korg Legacy Digital Preset from the Wavestation (it's called 'Vox Humana', no relation to the Gary Numan / Memory Moog patch of the same name, insofar as I can tell) on her hit single, and I didn't hear any reviewers or fans (including tons of people in laudatory threads on this forum) say, "well it's a decent album but fuck is it marred by use of those presets!!"

Nobody cares. Just make music. Like I said before, a great song is more than the sum of its parts. The songwriters creativity isn't measured by whether he/she tweaked a preset, or built their synths from scratch in Reaktor, or only used modular setups in an all-analog studio. Jesus. It comes from instinct, from a 'musical ear', from sensing and feeling the flow of an arrangement of different pieces, whatever the fuck they might be, presets or farts or whatever, melding together into something new, something bigger than the sum of it's parts, it's own total entity, a fucking song.

and even then, of course, it's all subjective. there's no accounting for taste.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

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