How to record Clip-automation?

[3dot...]

@VitaminB

..not if they ADD another layer of automation..
seperated from the 'relative' envelopes(which as is..can only be moused in anyways...)
same as in arrangement view..where the 2 layers of automation work together..

it's not that big of a deal imo..

[fx23]

edit: missed your post i think exactly the same 3dot

@ vitaminB:

they should only have done the concept more seriously. actually it's totally stupid to have separated absolute
in arrange and relative in session. If wanna make such abs/relative then make two real layers, in booth arrange and session.

imo both clips and arrange should be the same kind of clips: have a real absolute automations layer, and a second layer of modulation,so we could record absolute automations in booth, and have modulations in booth, and freely move from one to the other.

the pseudo copy/paste envelopes workaround is the one i do from years but it's freaking intolerable,
especially when you got lot of parameters. Simply if you have 25 automation rec in a clip in sequencer you have to manually select each one in sequencer clip, go back to session, select each parameter and copy the automation to the modulation, this for 25 parameters, for each clip, for each track!!!! this is insane and not acceptable workflow according to live supposed logic.
this piss me off the time and inspiration we loose by doing so.

with true transparent man would only move a clip, and simply loop rec in session!!!!!

[glitchrock-buddha]

The way clip envelopes work now is very good in that it's relative to the current value. This should not change. I also don't think there should be two layers of clip automation, that would become hopelessly confusing and would be unecessary and the source of much support time I think. My suggestion would be simply to have a clip automation overwrite mode just like the regular record overdub. When the button is on your knob movements overwrite the clip automation, when it's off it works relative to the current position as now. You'd also want a setting to deactivate at the end of the loop too or at least a quantize for deactivation (so you could deactivate and it would stop the recording at the end of the clip). It would simple and Ableton-esque. We can already write into clips with midi control, they just need to allow it for their own parameters and keep the relative functionality. Maybe by Live 10 or Live Pro, or Live SX.

[fx23]

The way clip envelopes work now is very good in that it's relative to the current value. This should not change.

we do agree it's nice to have that, and on the full dual layer system it would work exactly as well.
the modulation layer would work being relative to value/actual absolute sequence exactly as well.
the difference is only it would work in booth arrange and session.
and as well it could when recoff being relative control , or when you rec you would choose, the way i see it:

A) via a simple swich if you rec to Session OR Arrange.
B) via simple swich if rec is to go to LAYER1 Absolute OR layer2 Relative.

Once man has chosen it's setup there is no reasons to change. that's 2 swich on the gui near 'back to arrange' button. not so
complex disturbing stuff yor decently brained user no?

that also mean man could rec a first simple automation layer, then spice it once more recing the second, having control of 2.

results would be:
A) starting in session, we can tweak and rec complex advanced sketch stuff naturally and easily, as rec cc to session clips.
then play and rec the live set to Arrange, to Polish/correc as usual.
then B) even get the extra actually impossible luxe to copy back the clips time edited, 'corrected' back to session to replay them
live a more advanced 'sequenced' state, but in 'patern' non linear mode.

the 2 real layers is the only way I see and think for yeeeaaars (really, im obsessed with that till the day i got live 7 years ago) to get 100 percent transparent moves from session to arrange, wich is ultra important imo to raise live to what it's aimed at:
logical perfection.

now that would be the ideal clean way that might need the rewrite,

but if no rewrite i pray as well for the second workaround solution, rec to the modulation... ASAP

[glitchrock-buddha]

The way clip envelopes work now is very good in that it's relative to the current value. This should not change.

we do agree it's nice to have that, and on the full dual layer system it would work exactly as well.
the modulation layer would work being relative to value/actual absolute sequence exactly as well.
the difference is only it would work in booth arrange and session.
and as well it could when recoff being relative control , or when you rec you would choose, the way i see it:

A) via a simple swich if you rec to Session OR Arrange.
B) via simple swich if rec is to go to LAYER1 Absolute OR layer2 Relative.

Once man has chosen it's setup there is no reasons to change. that's 2 swich on the gui near 'back to arrange' button. not so
complex disturbing stuff yor decently brained user no?

that also mean man could rec a first simple automation layer, then spice it once more recing the second, having control of 2.

results would be:
A) starting in session, we can tweak and rec complex advanced sketch stuff naturally and easily, as rec cc to session clips.
then play and rec the live set to Arrange, to Polish/correc as usual.
then B) even get the extra actually impossible luxe to copy back the clips time edited, 'corrected' back to session to replay them
live a more advanced 'sequenced' state, but in 'patern' non linear mode.

the 2 real layers is the only way I see and think for yeeeaaars (really, im obsessed with that till the day i got live 7 years ago) to get 100 percent transparent moves from session to arrange, wich is ultra important imo to raise live to what it's aimed at:
logical perfection.

now that would be the ideal clean way that might need the rewrite,

but if no rewrite i pray as well for the second workaround solution, rec to the modulation... ASAP

I'm probably not quite understanding you, but that to me sounds like a nightmare. You're saying you could actually have 2 overlapping envelopes/automations for a single parameter? And one would act relative to the other? I think any automation should only act relative to the current position of the knob, no other sequence. A quantized clip record would let you put the knob where you want to start and have it kick in at the start of the clip and then stop at the end (if you've disengaged before it ends, or it overwrites again). As soon as it disengages at loop end, that sequence becomes relative to the current knob position. In my mind it couldn't be simpler (in use, not talking about implementation).

[fx23]

I'm probably not quite understanding you, but that to me sounds like a nightmare. You're saying you could actually have 2 overlapping envelopes/automations for a single parameter? And one would act relative to the other? I think any automation should only act relative to the current position of the knob, no other sequence.

Yes, 2, like it's actually working in arrange, without being a nightmare?, be able to draw a simple ramp as absolute and (eventually) modulate with smallersteped 2nd patern provided by the relative clip modulation. Don't you often do that in arrange?

And..as long as no automation would have been drawn or rec (by default), the resulting CV would still only act relative to the curr knob position, exactly like actually. so you would have the choice of booth keep exact actual sytem, but possible in session or
arrange and/or extended to 2 layers only if want. what is so complex?

[glitchrock-buddha]

Well I think they are trying to maintain the relationship between session and arrange. If they both had the same system, maybe that would be difficult to manage, especially the interaction when you record from session to arrange. That's why I suggest the simple way where it actually records automation that becomes the relative envelope as it is now. That can then be used the same way recording into arrange. A 2 layer system seems like it would complicate that relationship between session and arrrange, but I don't know. I'm sure they've been thinking about it for quite some time now. Hopefully they figure something out.

[fx23]

the way i see clips would be 100 percent 1:1 copied when played in session and rec to arrange with their booth curves, as
they would be fully compatible with this sytem, so no conflict.

what if the performers tweak a pot, where does the cv go? the cv goes where he chosed via the swich: absolute, like actually,
or even new possible then modulation layer choice.

but maybe they found a better system
...then it's time for them to show us!!!!!
i definitely hope we ll see light at the end of the tunnel.

[crumhorn]

They wouldn't even need to change the user interface. If the arrangement record button is active record as automation otherwise if recording into a clip then record as a clip envelope. If only......

[3dot...]

they don't have to change anything...
I need the modulation envelopes as well...
just add an 'automation' tab to clips in session (the same as the envelope tab)
...and let us record into it..

it's the only sane solution to this..

as a sidenote...the absurd thing is..
you can record clip automation for vsts/synths which have their own 'midi maps'...
which means all the NI plugins for instance..all the AAS plugins...
almost every self-respecting vst and external synth for that matter..
but NOT for Lives' devices..

fix that..
(and the sysex pass-through...
and the timing issues..
and the limited keyboard shortcut scheme..
and the limited device access and general funkiness in m4l...)
and I'll be praising up Live 9 !!!
(...as long as it doesn't crash all that much)

[fx23]

yeah, i will be so blasted out if L9 didn't fixed that point

[triangularobjects]

i found it useful in my live setting to record clip "automations" by sending my midi clips audio to an audio track. it doesnt record the actual automation in an envelope but it allows me to create loops on the fly with the actual audio being effected.

dont know if this answers your question, but it works for me when im playing live. im not trying to go back for further envelope editing. hope this is useful for you.

[nicolas.kellner]

here's an explanation of the workaround:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/a ... h_0209.htm

[Khazul]

Is that the guy who designed the lack of this feature?

[ze2be]

The current system makes me nuts. Klinke, my best advice is to pretend its not a problem. I rarely draw envelopes into clips, because I dont want to reset all macros etc, every time ive used them. Instead I use session for raw midi notes and audio clips, and record automation into loops in the Arangement view instead. Like Cubase etc, old scool. Atleast, it works as expected.