OT - Cheap Mics and Human Rights

[anonymouse]

I'm a Westerner, but have lived in Asia for the past decade - Singapore, Philippines, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Nanjing, Beijing, Tokyo and Seoul.

It is funny to hear the heated debate amongst certain people here who have no experience of what they are talking about.

One thing to bear in mind is that while working in a factory making Nike or iPods for $5 a day might seem like slave labour to some, for many impoverished Chinese, the opportunity to work in such a factory is highly prized and offers much improved working conditions over the alternative agricultural jobs. Not all factory work is pleasant, and abuse does happen - that happens globally. Many of these factories are owned and operated directly by US and European companies. But living conditions and perceptions of luxuy are relative to what people are used to. A Chinese farm girl who gets a job in a crowded factory assembling hard disc drives for 11 hours a day and sharing a tiny apartment with 10 others - will quite likely be overjoyed with this opportunity for advancement and take pleasure in her work and financial independence. This doesn't make her a fool or a victim of abuse. It should give chubby spoilt Westerners pause for thought as they overindulge, overconsume and take for granted the affluence that they enjoy at the expense of the citizens of other poorer nations that they exploit, albeit indirectly, to maintain their own lifestyles.

And as far as taking a stand about human rights abuses and environmental destrution by Asian governments, bear in mind that at least 150,000 Iraqis have perished, and many times that number are maimed for life in order to keep American gas prices at ridiculously low levels. America has changed the logging laws so as vast tracts of forest in the US can now be felled by the logging companies. Alaska is soon to be churned up and polluted in order to drill for oil. Horrific human rights abuses are continuing in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Iraqi prisons managed by the US. The activities of the current administration have been endorsed by its re-election.

So maybe you can focus your protests a little closer to home.

[anonymouse]

At present, the US deficit is being financed largely by Asian central banks, led by China, which have built up massive foreign exchange reserves approaching $2000bn in the last three years. Japan also is lumbered with massive amounts of US$. So the US has become dependent on a few individuals in a few of the world's central banks. Currently foreign central banks finance over 90% of the US current account deficit, with Asian central banks accounting for 88 per cent of flows.

If these deficits are left unchecked, a severe financial crisis seems imminent with increasing downward pressure on the dollar, upward pressure on US interest rates and the recent launch by the US of protectionist measures to control imports from China ... this is the first step towards disaster. The US has dug its own hole, thanks largely to the genius economics and overseas adventures of the Bush Administration. Now the masterful diplomatic abilities of George "Bulldog" Bush should help to really hammer the nails into the economic coffin.

Sad pity is that when the whole thing blows up and plunges the US into a massive recession, it'll take the rest of the planet with it. The poor kid assembling XBox 360s in Guangzhou for $2 a day will find themselves applying for a job at a coalmine on the Mongolian border.

[stephenlnoe]

Once again computo you thing you 'know' something.

"What you're saying makes no sense" - to you maybe.

You could boycott China but It'll be impossible. Almost everything you buy has a part of piece from China. Whether you like it or not, China is the biggest country and you can't avoid doing business with them.

[computo]

Wow, its amazing that you guys are actually defending Chinese working conditions.

I hope someday that all of you get the opportunity, as you must see it, to work in one of these factories.

I love that stephen says "Once again computo you thing you 'know' something. "

Because then you follow, with the assumption that YOU know something. Well, to retort, you are fucking ignorant.

Stop wasting your breath, because every time you suggest that those people working in those factories are "lucky" or "priviliged" it simply makes you look like a completely heartless idiot.

You can Love or envy China all you want, but please, dont suggest that thanks to the Chinese, we'll all have the "opportunity" to work under worse conditions and for less money. That is just fucking retarded. Oh, and so is the concept that "China" is becoming a "rich, rich" country. The only people getting rich are international Business interests and Chinese willing to sell their own country-people short. Much like you guys seem more than willing to do.

[Sales Dude McBoob]

Well, to retort, you are fucking ignorant.

Gentelmen gentelmen please! Save you your flame wars and firey spurs for the Nuendo forum, why this is ableton.com! A place where which audio-only multi-tracking folk music artists can commune openly with illbient breakbeat tweaksters of all stripes.

Let us engage one another constructively instead of giving in to the little that lives in each one of our souls.

Now I am aware that the current administration of the United States is sending our country into the shit basket faster than any of us could have imagined- but I started this thread to focus on our own independant actions as pro audio consumers. I wanted to avoid the the type of threads that occured around election time that polarized our little electro community.

I have yet to hear from anyone who has a concrete idea how we can do something to better the current situation. There is a shared bleakness clouding over this debate. Are we really helpless? I refuse to believe so.

[MrYellow]

The world is not America.

They aren't as lucky or priviliged as someone born into a rich (by world
standards) family in America.

This isn't about envy for China or their working conditions..... It's about the
simple reality of growing up in such a country and the limited options for
bettering your life. Along with the desire of the leaders to grow their country
and do better as a whole.

The only people getting rich are international Business interests and
Chinese willing to sell their own country-people short.

This is exactly where you're missing our point......

Some people believe nternational business is taking advantage of China,
but the simple truth is China has been taking advantage of international
business for sometime now. The result? Businesses, jobs and income
flowing out of the US like a river. Whole cities have been sucked dry. All the
for the benefit of people living in China.

Did you know that often when a business wants to tap into the Chinese
market for sales they will be required to hand over the technology and build
the product locally? Selling out for short-term sales in China, while in the
long-term the Chinese start making the product themselves.

Did you know that practically every company that used to supply America
with simple household products is now closed and in their place is Chinese
businesses?

They are not selling their people short. Not by a long shot.

They could do like everyone else and bow to the world bank and IMF. They
could allow America to dictate how the game is played. However instead
they have taken the bull by the horns and are fighting the battle their way
and winning.

Oh and another thing that you probably aren't taking into account..... China
has been dodgy with the valuation of their currency for the last 10 years.....
It's impossible to say with accuracy.... but US$1 generated locally in China
is probably more like $30-40..... So $1 a day is really (as far as what can
be bought in China with it) more like $30-40 a day.

I wouldn't sell the Chinese short and say they are being taken advantage
of by American/International businesses and doing themselves a
disservice..... They have actually played the game really very smartly and
will benefit a great deal from it in the medium term.

-Ben

[MrYellow]

I have yet to hear from anyone who has a concrete idea how we can do
something to better the current situation. There is a shared bleakness
clouding over this debate.

Buy the mic u like. The one with the features and sound u want.



If you want to support jobs in your country then buy a locally made one.

If you want to support workers and companies in China then buy a Chinese one.

If you want a cheap one that has the same features as an expensive one, buy Chinese.

If you don't want a mic, don't buy one.

-Ben

[computo]

amazing...You really think that China is out to help their people. Thats so sweet and innocent. They're such a touchy feely nation too, I can see how you would think that. They show SO much respect to their workers and people, dont they? You can have all the admiration in the world for the Economic sensibilities of that nation, but you have no sense whatsoever of what is right for the worker.

Yellow, you talk about rich Americans, and how the chinese arent as lucky, but YOU are the elitist who is all about degrading workers rights, and conditions for the cheap mic you want. YOU are the egalitarian elite, not us. You are the one who is standing on the side of cheap, unsafe labor. If it wasnt for the US labor force, there would be no standard for others to follow. There wouldnt even be an international workers holiday!

Open your eyes, you elitest trash. You are the problem, with your eagerness to step on the poor to get your sweet little Rode.

[Liam]

I have to laugh at attempts to discuss the global economy that fail to mention the biggest business in the world. Currency speculation (er... trading).

More money is traded in one day than the entire world GNP for a year.

Go figure.

And if you think the wealth owners will stand by you when a crunch comes - watch them sell you out for whatever slice of the next economic cake they can get.

[computo]

thanks for taking us completely off topic

[adhmzaiusz]

kind of off topic, but:

don't any of you guys think that we all have it bad??? even though we may have money we dont have time. or if we don't have money we have even less time because we struggle our asses off for wages no matter where we are living.

doesn't the term 'occupation' mean anything to anyone? that is what occupies your time(your job). there is a reason cars and houses are so much money so we are forced to keep our time occupied with our job. it really sucks. we may not have living conditions as bad as some people do around the earth, but we all share something in common. working the ass to the bone just for a miserable form of survival. ive realised that after high school it seems the only reason we all work is to continue working until we are withered old prunes when we cant offer anything more. sure there are luxuries we have over others, but i find barely any time to use these luxuries anyways. i guess only the truly rich are the only ones who can enjoy life to its fullest

[elemental]

Buy the mic u like. The one with the features and sound u want.



If you want to support jobs in your country then buy a locally made one.

If you want to support workers and companies in China then buy a Chinese one.

If you want a cheap one that has the same features as an expensive one, buy Chinese.

If you don't want a mic, don't buy one.

-Ben

Thats the simple solution!

2 of my current housemates are Chinese. I'm gonna ask them about this issue before I post anything (since I know nothing right now)

[bigbadotis]

I'm reading "The End of Poverty" right now by Jeffrey Sachs. He lays out a plan for ending "extreme" poverty (where people have to economically struggle to survive on daily basis) by 2025. Not finished reading it yet, but it seems like the path for economies to move out of poverty basically goes as follows:

1) Sweatshops enter in
2) Women's rights improve as they are able to earn a living on their own, or at least contribute to family finances. This decreases the number of children they have, which further improves their economic position. There is a move towards urbanization where such jobs occur.
3) Increasing urbanization and basic economic viability allow the children of such families to receive some form of education.
4) Sweatshops move out as the more highly educated economy demands better working conditions and pay. The infrastructure developed by sweatshops along with higher education standards allows economies to advance to service oriented businesses.

The book DOES NOT say that all is well with the current world economy, by a long shot, and has some pretty stinging remarks for the current economic policies of the West towards impoverished countries. And there are obviously a large number of other factors he takes into account besides the basic skeleton I've provided here. But it does provide a different point of view about the necessity of sweatshops.

It's making me think I don't need to buy all my clothes from American Apparel, which is good, because that stuff is expensive :)

[Sales Dude McBoob]

even though we may have money we dont have time. or if we don't have money we have even less time because we struggle our asses off for wages no matter where we are living.

doesn't the term 'occupation' mean anything to anyone? that is what occupies your time(your job).

This is way off topic but it's something I can address quickly and then we can get back to nothing short of SAVING THE WORLD with our Ableton posts.

Yeah man, I hear you. This delema is more along the lines of "the plight of mankind itself". The problem is that there is always some sort of problem. If you have to work 52 hours a week every week like me- that leaves about 2 hours a night for making music, if you're lucky. But, if you have big bucks and tons of gear and tons of time- this does not equate to happiness and self worth and making music that's worth a shit.

This is the same reasoning some people on this thread are making the case for the factory workers who are bettering their position in life by taking the sometimes dangerous work for $1 and an 11 hour day. They don't have much, but it's much more than they are used to having. The point these posters are trying to make is a valid one.

My point however is that, again, by buying all of this equipment we are bolstering a government that throws people in prison and beats and kills them for the simple act of exercising in a park on a sunny day with their friends.

There is something to be said for depravity. Yeah, I only get 2 hours a night with Ableton and Final Cut or whatever creative venture I feel is worth my precious time at the given moment. But the limitations are what it's all about. I gotta really bust my ass to make things happen, as well as to make ends meet- and therein lies the challenge. You gotta beat back those woes and fucking go for it. The potential spoils of achievement wouldn't be worth anything if it was easy.

[anonymouse]

I'm just curious, is Computo some sort of armchair expert or has he any clue what he is talking about?

For example, does he have longterm strong relationships with extremely poor and extremely rich chinese from different regions of an enormous diverse multiethnic nation?

Does he speak Chinese?

Does he do business in China?

Has he been to China?

Have Chinese people been prepared to share their personal feelings on their own nation and standard of living with him?

I'm just guessing but given

Well, to retort, you are fucking ignorant. Stop wasting your breath

I suspect he may not be that capable of listening to and properly comprehending the views of other people, let alone understand a culture profoundly different to his own.