Can some1 help kickstart my new passion

alucidvision · Post by **alucidvision** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:15 pm

I'm chasing a sound recording tech degree at UMass Lowell, and i figure exploring the production of sounds and rhythms thru Live will supplement my lifelong passion. I'm shurr by trial and error that I can define much of the terminology on my own but can any1 refer me to a good website that would define the terminology for me and break down a particular sound into its components such as frequency, resonance, velocity, etc ? Also I am confused as to how to begin attacking this program - should I try to produce a sound to begin with and then try to turn it into a rhythm / beat ? or should I work with the samples that come with the program to familiarize myself with the arrangement and session views ?
Also after looking extensively thru the forum it seems to me that Live was designed mostly to act as a hub and that it may be difficult to produce desired results w/out external software / instruments / plugins. Is this the purpose of VST ? what exactly is VST ?
If you'd rather point me towards a preexisting thread that would be nice too, but any help is appreciated

-Lou

Milkmansound · Post by **Milkmansound** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:32 pm

you are in school for recording and you are asking what a VST is?

you are in school for recording and you are wondering why a sequencing program does not make sounds on its own?

man, I hate to be a rude jerk here, but these are the basics! I can not believe they would even accept people into school for recirding without any fundamental skills whatsoever. I mean, you do not have to be Rick Rubin before you apply, but shouldn't one know the basics of the tools and music? Am I crazy in thinking that people should go to school to refine their knowlegde? Well, before I go on forever I will make a quick signal flow path for you so that you might understand:

Soundwave as ocurring in the natural world > microphone turns it into an electronic signal > preamp steps signal up to line level for mixing/eqing/etc > AD convertor turns it into 1's and 0's so that your computer can process > sequencing software captures sound onto harddisk so that you might edit/process audio further > DA convertor converts back into analog signal so that you can hear what you are doing

so now you can see the role of Live - however, it can do much much more than this - VST programs allow the computer to generate tones so that you can skip a few steps in above diagram. Those tones can then be processed and sequenced (put into order) by live.

oh boy, what happened to no child left behind?!?!

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:43 pm

Hey... giving a shout out from Nashua neighbor...

Anyway...

I suppose that you could say that Live is a sort of hub in many ways. It can be used for quite a few things you can think up, even if you have to be somewhat outside the box when coming up with a solution. Not knowing how familiar you are with other tools (and it sounds like you probably aren't), probably the best way to think of live in a raw sense is to compare it to a multi-track recorder/player that allows you to jump around to any point in a track and play what you want in sync with all the other tracks.

As I said, that is rather raw... but when you consider that each track has a mixer to adjust volume levels, plus you can add effects (such as eq, filtering, resonance...) as well as create send tracks (perhaps to add reverb to your mix), you've got quite a bit of power, yet still only scratched the surface of what you can do in live.

A definition for a VST is basically a module or effect that takes in audio data and outputs audio data. This would fall under the eq/filter/tube/compressor type of effects. A similar tool is a VSTi which is a VST instrument... these take in midi data and output audio data... so as you had mentioned this would be what you would use to generate sounds, if you go over to www.kvraudio.com you can find just about every VST/VSTi catalogued over there.

By breaking a sound down to it's components I don't know exactly what you mean. If what you are asking for is how to recreate a sound off of album xyz that you really like by analyzing it, I don't think you'll get very far. Sound construction/reproduction is a very complicated process. Instead what I would suggest is taking some tools like operator or simpler that are already included in live and just start learning how to make patches and sounds with them.

For a few products you may want to look into as an alternative to Live... or just to get your feet wet... you may want to get Propellerheads Reason, Native Instruments Reaktor has a lot of instruments/drum machines to play with... if you're looking for hardware I'd possibly suggest looking into drum machines like the Korg ESX-1 or EMX-1. Something else that you might find helpful (especially if you are going to use Live) would be to check out loop/sample libraries... if you go to websites like www.audiomidi.com or sony's website and dig around you can find gigabytes worth of samples... a look around online can unearth a large quantity of free samples as well.

Finally, I'd also suggest going to the bookstore and picking up a copy of a music magazine... computer music or future music comes to mind... both are generally packaged with a CD or two that contains royalty free (meaning you can use them to produce your own music) samples and loops. Besides samples these magazines usually contain a few articles about how to do different things, such as effects, scales, composition and the like. Don't feel bad if you don't understand half of what they say to begin with... it took me about a year and a half to pick up all the lingo...

Good Luck, and hopefully this post was informative and helpful...

Greg

Apocrypha · Post by **Apocrypha** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:50 pm

Milkmansound wrote:you are in school for recording and you are asking what a VST is?

you are in school for recording and you are wondering why a sequencing program does not make sounds on its own?

man, I hate to be a rude jerk here, but these are the basics! I can not believe they would even accept people into school for recirding without any fundamental skills whatsoever. I mean, you do not have to be Rick Rubin before you apply, but shouldn't one know the basics of the tools and music? Am I crazy in thinking that people should go to school to refine their knowlegde? Well, before I go on forever I will make a quick signal flow path for you so that you might understand:

Soundwave as ocurring in the natural world > microphone turns it into an electronic signal > preamp steps signal up to line level for mixing/eqing/etc > AD convertor turns it into 1's and 0's so that your computer can process > sequencing software captures sound onto harddisk so that you might edit/process audio further > DA convertor converts back into analog signal so that you can hear what you are doing

so now you can see the role of Live - however, it can do much much more than this - VST programs allow the computer to generate tones so that you can skip a few steps in above diagram. Those tones can then be processed and sequenced (put into order) by live.

oh boy, what happened to no child left behind?!?!

Even though alucidvision might not understand certain aspects of recording, it does not mean he can't go to school and learn them. Knowing what VST is is not fundemental for recording. Signal flow is a fundemental. Steve Albini probably doesn't know or care what VST is but do think that matters? He is a great engineer.

If you want to learn Live, you will need to know what VST is. If you want to learn recording at school, I hope the school will teach you what sound recording actually is. It has nothing to do with ones and zeros unless you plan on spending your life in the digital domain which doesn't sound very good compared to analog. If these schools are just teaching kids about digital sequencer programs and nothing else, then thee future of music does not look very bright.

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:55 pm

There is actually a free on-line book over at www.kvraudio.com that gives the basics (and more) of sound design using five of the more popular VSTis out there, including z3ta, vanguard, cameleon, Rhino, and one more I can't think of off hand.

It is really good at giving the concepts of how sounds flow through synths from oscillators/wavetables through filters, LFOs etc...also a bit on additive I think.

It really is a good read, and should benefit anyone, especially one fairly new to this.

Hope this helps,
Cheers.
ab

innerdreamrecords.com · Post by **innerdreamrecords.com** » Fri May 27, 2005 7:02 pm

Apocrypha - unfortunately most recordings in the pro realm these days are digital, analog is most certainly not being used anymore for the most part in commercial studios.

anonymouse · Post by **anonymouse** » Fri May 27, 2005 7:21 pm

alucidvision, i barely read your post, but you need to buy reaktor 5 or max/msp if you are doing a degree in synthesis.

As it sounds like you want to avoid programming, and focus on an object/macine approach,.i'd recommend reaktor.

Google "Computer Music Tutorial" as a text.

Live has nothing to do with synthesis in itself, except for Operator, a good FM synth. But it is not academically orientated.

________

re-read your post; you are doing a degree in recording. Just curious, how many years will it take?

Anyway, for recording ... i'd suggest you forget about synthesis altogether and figure out how to record piano, vocals and guitar. sounds simple, not easy to do right.

buzzcock · Post by **buzzcock** » Fri May 27, 2005 7:42 pm

The book I first cracked on the subject was called "The Technique of the Sound Studio" by Alec Nisbett. It may seem a little dated but the fundimentals of sound and recording have not changed.

I have found this resource to be useful from time to time:

http://www.proav.de/

As for the current wave of technology (VST et al) you can familiarize yourself by checking out popular magazines (Sound on Sound, Tape Op, Electronic Musician to name a few). Be aware, however that like any publication, these mags are in the business of selling advertising. Much of what they rave about is crap.

The most important tool you have are your ears- first learn to train them, then to trust them. Don't be discouraged by detractors-- continue to ask questions until you are satisfied-- but do you research too.

Best of luck.

Apocrypha · Post by **Apocrypha** » Sun May 29, 2005 8:35 am

innerdreamrecords.com wrote:Apocrypha - unfortunately most recordings in the pro realm these days are digital, analog is most certainly not being used anymore for the most part in commercial studios.

If you are referring to 2 inch tape, then you might have an argument since Quantegy recently filed for barnkruptcy recently even though now they look like they are back on track. I am referring to analog hardware vs. plug-ins, mixing OTB, things like that. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

smart1123 · Post by **smart1123** » Mon May 30, 2005 10:07 pm

Lost of people I know still use tape. Some record everything to 2" and mix off of it, most record digital, edit then lay to 2" for warmth and tape compression. Some go tape>protools>tape. Although I am not seeing much of this in film post, lots of music engineers I know swear by their 2" machine.
And yes Quantageny is selling 2" tape again.