Kontakt 4 vs Sampler.

[mr.ergonomics]

and don't forget that you can use racks with sampler, it's so fast to use that I can build big custom racks with fx and different sampler instances in a moment.

every task has a best tool, sometimes it's kontakt for me, but most of the time it's sampler.

Not to dog on you, but Racks are not in any way a Sampler only device, you can of course use them for Kontakt as well, so there's absolutely zero benefit that Racks bring to Sampler that they don't bring to Kontakt. In that sense with Kontakt you could have multiple audio outs from the same instance of Kontakt all in a Rack, something you can't do with Sampler without multiple instances of Sampler. Basically Racks are more versatile with Kontakt.
It's easier to loop in Sampler, but Kontakt has the REX style slicing built in, plus a ton more versatility, oh yeah? Pitch time stuff built in, the whole bit.

thats true. But I had in mind that you can overcome some of samplers limits with this method. actually what counts is how good can you archive the goals you have with the tools you have and not what is possible.

I the answer (just)for me is sampler. I like to resample audio, it's really easy with sampler since you can drag a audio clip in it. you need way more time to do that in kontakt. and all basic functions like pitch envelopes are better in sampler. it's messy to make a 48+ pitch envelope (for drums) in kontakt, I think you need for stacked envelopes for this. I discovered that most interesting unique sound stuff I made is a accumulation just from many basic tasks. so 80% of the time I only basic functions for sound design. and I'm much much faster with sampler in this area. messing around with sampler in ableton feels like playing a game. for me kontakt still has a place for advanced tasks, but I don't need that often. for sampling instruments kontakt is way better of course.
and regarding looping, you can't do a forward/backward loop with xfading in kontakt (that means clicks). this is a essential feature for me, I love to create pads this way.

[ze2be]

Racks are not in any way a Sampler only device, you can of course use them for Kontakt as well, so there's absolutely zero benefit that Racks bring to Sampler that they don't bring to Kontakt. In that sense with Kontakt you could have multiple audio outs from the same instance of Kontakt all in a Rack, something you can't do with Sampler without multiple instances of Sampler. Basically Racks are more versatile with Kontakt.
It's easier to loop in Sampler, but Kontakt has the REX style slicing built in, plus a ton more versatility, oh yeah? Pitch time stuff built in, the whole bit.

I beg to differ! With simpler and sampler in racks and tracks, you dont have to worry about 3rd party plugs i/os and limitations of those. Best of all, you can have tons of little samplers everywhere, without taxing ram or cpu at all. To my style of work, I wouldnt touch Kontakt for sample program creations. But thats me. Lives plugs use very little ram, and virtually no cpu when idle. Some dont mind using tons of ram and cpu to get where they want. Im the oposit, I trim down and tweek as much as possible to save disk space, ram and cpu. Im on a budget, but it also makes my projects run very smoothly. And it increases the life spam of my computers too, of corse which is a viable point when your on a tight budget.

[mr.ergonomics]

and to add another one - I don't like kontakts GUI. way too much up/down scrolling for me. I don't get it why the make a two columns layout since a instance of kontakt has a small width on screen.

[ze2be]

at do add another - I don't like kontakts GUI. way too much up/down scrolling for me. I don't get it why the make a two columns layout since a instance of kontakt has a small width on screen.

I agree with your last posts. But to be fair, Lives racks also aquire lots of scrolling in a very cramed little space, when they start to get complex. I have scared a couple of studio mates with my complex looking racks. However, after some more tuning and tweeking, I seem to have goten atleast one of those mates to start diging into it now. Its actually really easy. It just looks dawnting with all the scrolling, mousing arround in the tiny cramed little screen space down there.

[Machinesworking]

Best of all, you can have tons of little samplers everywhere, without taxing ram or cpu at all.

Of course it's taxing CPU, of course there are few tricks it has that are cool, Racks are not one of them.
Face it, 16 instances of Sampler is going to take more CPU than one instance of Kontakt with 16 channels.
I don't own Sampler I can use Racks with kontakt, it's not a feature of Sampler, it's a feature of Live.

[ze2be]

Of course it's taxing CPU, of course there are few tricks it has that are cool, Racks are not one of them.
Face it, 16 instances of Sampler is going to take more CPU than one instance of Kontakt with 16 channels.
I don't own Sampler I can use Racks with kontakt, it's not a feature of Sampler, it's a feature of Live.

Yes, clearly, but I find it a lot cleaner to have little sample racks all arround that I can drag and drop from the browser quickly when needed. I mostly use Simpler in those racks, but also Sampler. To me Sampler doesnt use much cpu really. However, dont forget Sampler is multi timbral. I tend to use Simpler in racks the most, because every single sample can have its own signal chain. I then nest them, so I can change variables from the macros. For instance, I have a tom rack where I can swap tom styles, 60ties, 70ties and 80ties and so fourth, as well as layering fills with modulating volume of a second layer of toms, etc.

Drag and drop to a track when needed. I try to have mostly the same functions on the macros through all the drum and sample racks. I also try to have the same amount of samples and key positions in each, so they all can share midi clips. Those clips are collected as presets aswell. The drum racks have simple names like: Snares, Kicks, Hats, Shakes, Toms, Rides, Splash&Crash, Swosh&Swell. But also themes like: Samurai, African, Indian, and so forth. The themes uses 16 sample slots, while the others use 4.

And I do kind of the same thing with effect racks. In a way its like creating lego parts: the more parts available, the more complex you can build.

[Machinesworking]

\Yes, clearly, but I find it a lot cleaner to have little sample racks all arround that I can drag and drop from the browser quickly when needed. I mostly use Simpler in those racks, but also Sampler. To me Sampler doesnt use much cpu really. However, dont forget Sampler is multi timbral. I tend to use Simpler in racks the most, because every single sample can have its own signal chain. I then nest them, so I can change variables from the macros. For instance, I have a tom rack where I can swap tom styles, 60ties, 70ties and 80ties and so fourth, as well as layering fills with modulating volume of a second layer of toms, etc.

Drag and drop to a track when needed. I try to have mostly the same functions on the macros through all the drum and sample racks. I also try to have the same amount of samples and key positions in each, so they all can share midi clips. Those clips are collected as presets aswell. The drum racks have simple names like: Snares, Kicks, Hats, Shakes, Toms, Rides, Splash&Crash, Swosh&Swell. But also themes like: Samurai, African, Indian, and so forth. The themes uses 16 sample slots, while the others use 4.

And I do kind of the same thing with effect racks. In a way its like creating lego parts: the more parts available, the more complex you can build.

That's the deal though, Ableton IMO really need to beef up Sampler, if you're plugging it VS Kontakt, but still reverting to Simpler because Sampler doesn't allow multi outs from a single instance, which is IMO the main drawback to Sampler. I'm sure there's some CPU saving stuff going on, but 16 instances of Sampler are definitely going to take more CPU than one instance of Kontakt, with the same 16 full instruments and MIDI channels etc. If Sampler had multiple filters per instance, multi outs, and carried some of Racks functionality without having to have 16 of them to do the same thing then IMO it would be worth it to me to get it, as it is Kontakt does all the things I really require a sampler to do.
I use Live for little things though, why bother using a sampler at all for the simple things when Live itself stretches audio and does things it's own samplers cannot?

[ze2be]

Yeah, im with you on the Sampler. I got it with Suite, and its used only occationally. And you cant automate the start position of the Sampler eighter, which is a future I use a lot on Simpler.

[ze2be]

Kontakt is like a tanker, which is great if you need heavy duty. I would def use it if needed. But i mostly use one key samples, and do multitimbral melodies with synths. I did create a rack last year containing 400 vocal snipets. Only needed 4 instances of Sampler. You can widen Samplers view all over your screen when key mapping, which is why I LOVE vector guis. especially coming from the early days of HW samplers.

[Akshara]

I originally purchased Sampler as a standalone before the Suite was available, and used it exclusively for a long while. It is an excellent design tool, perfect for creating original sounds within Live's ecosystem.

However there is one critical reason why I eventually had to invest in the full version of Kontakt: microtuning. And now I understand what all the fuss was about, as it really is a superior tool.

Kontakt is on another level; and if I were to make a hierarchal list of music software according to value, would place Kontakt on the same level as Live itself, rather than on the same level as Sampler.

[icedsushi]

I prefer Sampler, all the most important functions are right there in front of your face & I like the loop fade function as others have mentioned. The CPU load seems lower than Kontakt too, I don't think I'd ever use all the engines of a single instance of Kontakt anyway, which wouldn't be optimized in my case anyway. I made a decision to choose one over the other & not have both to avoid diluting my focus because there's too much overlap between what they both do.

Sure, Kontakt is technically more powerful, but seems really bloated to me it's like a 40GB library included with it now of just the factory content? Which can be an obvious reason for people to choose over Sampler but not for me. Some nice sounds in there but who has time to wade through all of the clutter for the good bits? And you can't really easily uninstall the parts you'll never use. I don't really need that extra 20% of functions Kontakt has to offer. Sampler feels more like starting with a clean slate with your own samples & more personal so I like that. So there's a tendency to come up with something more unique with that kind of workflow. Kontakt does slicing I think which Sampler doesn't do, but you can do that in Live anyway and do it indirectly with Sampler. I also find it quicker to get the results I want from Sampler than I do from Kontakt & I don't really care to spend the time to analyze why exactly that is. My reasons for preferring it aren't all logical and based on what has more "power".

People have mentioned Sampler being locked within Live as a downside, but if you think of it 90% of the Kontakt content out there is kind of the same way, you're restricted to use it within Kontakt. With Sampler you can only use it in Live, but with Kontakt you can only use the libraries with Kontakt. I use to have Elektrik Piano. After it was discontinued, I tried to use it with Kontakt player but you needed the obsolete EP plugin on your hard drive to get it to load in Kontakt player. It's only a matter of time until the EP standalone stops working & only option is to upgrade to Kontakt. That was my turning point with Kontakt so I dumped it & went with a more simple setup & feel a little more productive without having both & just concentrate on Sampler. If you have to have one of the multi-GB cinematic/orchestra libraries out there approaching $1000 that come in Kontakt format, basically that's when you realize you absolutely have to have Kontakt, IMO.

If you use the libraries made specifically for Kontakt, they either don't translate/sound the same or simply won't load in anything else because NI make the .nki format imbedded so you can't access the waveforms. I prefer to have the freedom to do what I want with my samples, not be told by NI that I can only use them in Kontakt. For that reason, I don't buy embedded .nki sample libraries that are restricted to Kontakt.

It's funny because I have several other NI plugins & I'm a big fan of NI, however I've just never got it on with Kontakt. And I have Maschine & like that, so I may be contradicting myself a little bit, LOL. I think their synths & effects seem more streamlined than their samplers. Everyone's got their reasons for what they like to use I guess.

Sampler also feels a little old skool & can get touch more grungy when you pitch certain samples far down or up, which I see as a good think if you're looking for that kind of character.

[marra]

Two reasons I like Kontakt over sampler. One is that there is time stretching (ie. time independent pitching of samples) which lets you create patches from samples that don't change sample length as you change pitch.

This is coming !!

[oddstep]

marra: how do you know? Are you an ableton developer?
I don't use kontakt any more. I used to have a cracked version of 1.2, but then I decided that I wasn't prepared to carry on supporting copyright theft, so I stopped using it. However, even then it was definitely better than sampler - time stretching and multiple outs being the big differences. Sampler does the job, its modulation options are really great, the fm stuff is good and the ability to hitch loop parameters to an lfo or envelope is nice. ... but ultimately kontakt is in a class of its own, and is priced accordingly. that said, I wouldn't buy it, I'm virtually 100% Live and hardware - so sampler's integration is a real plus for me.

[3dot...]

Kontakt is so much more than 'Sampler'...
that you can't even compare the two! ...

[mr.ergonomics]

.. yeah kontakts workflow is really "more" bad, that's right

love kontakt features... hate the usebility with this small 1bar rack concept, constant scrolling.