Linux version?!

[seattletruth]

I haven't had a Windows partition in years. Many Linux people quit dual-booting after a while.

BTW, I have heard that Ableton has a lot of Python, which is trivial to port to Linux. It mostly involves the cp command.

Sucks to be you. Is it Ableton's fault that you deleted your doze partition? Choices have consequences.

[sanosdole]

Writing 99% of Ableton in python? You can´t be serious.

I would love to see a *nix port of Ableton but it is not woth the effort for the company.

The only way a company like ableton could support *nix systems is by refactoring their code and using a good platform abstraction layer.
This is easy for File/Network access but difficult for the Audio Engine (Asio vs. Core Audio vs. ALSA/Jack) and the GUI.

If Ableton is doing an UI refactoring with modern technologies for supporting Multi-Monitor / Multi-Touch and similiar requests, there is a good chance that a *nix port will be fundable as a by-product.

There are far more important steps to take for Ableton than supporting *nix systems.

[KeithCu]

It doesn't suck to run Linux over Windows. I emailed to two people at Ableton who ran Linux, one who ran Debian for more than 10 years. So even they can't defend it. The whole point about the free market is that we are in charge, and don't need to defend Ableton's bad ideas. If you don't demand better, you won't get better.

Ableton could be written in 99% Python, like Mercurial, SciPy, etc. It is only the tight inner loops, and some of them would be in assembly language, etc. anyway.

Ableton already supports multiple sound systems when it supports Mac and Windows, so it is refactored. If they only support Windows, it would be a lot more work. It is like asking a distributed file system to support an additional underlying file systems. It is work, but not that hard. The problem is not the sound APIs, it is all the other stuff (packaging formats, plugin compatibility, testing, etc.)

So if Wikipedia didn't work for any Linux users, you think it would be the same? Why did the web kill Word / Wordperfect? Why did MP3 take off? If you don't support Linux, you are hurting Linux and hurting yourself. Supporting Linux is not the most important feature, but it is more important than some of the features they are adding. If you sort their features by priority, and work your way up from the bottom enough until you have time for the port and most people won't notice.

The problem is that Ableton is running on inertia. Linux has quietly grown from .1% to 3%. It is now up there with the Mac, and growing faster. Cuba is finishing the move to Linux this year, for example. Obviously that isn't a money-making situation, but it is one I'm personally familiar with and the point is that it can grow in chunks of millions of desktops in a way that the Mac cannot, and Ableton needs to be ready and should be already.

There are various different numbers on Linux marketshare. We don't really know. But if you look at the numbers the Ubuntu and Fedora throw around (20M each) then it becomes possible that Linux is at 80M, which is worthwhile compared to Apple which sells 15M Macs per year. If one distro today has more users than Apple in one year, then it is worthwhile.

The reason not to focus on the iPhone is that it is a platform for consuming music but not producing it. What is ableton if they throw away 95% of their features? Note, it isn't that hard to throw away features, but it also isn't that hard to get Python running on Linux. People can walk and chew gum.

Ableton won't have any legal issues in a port. Some of the dev tools need polish, but they are used by many millions already. Somehow, many companies manage to ship on 3 platforms without going bankrupt.

Python is better than Objective C, so it isn't true that all the Linux tools suck.

-Keith
http://keithcu.com/

[seattletruth]

The thing is they wouldn't actually make any money off selling a Linux port.

Why? Because your license applies to any OS. You can DL both the PC and the Mac version for the same price.

Nobody who wants to get serious in music production runs Linux... because... (guess what).. there isn't a real DAW.

So anybody who wants to get into music production already has a windows / mac partition. How would ableton make money off a mac port? Selling 5 extra copies (maybe)?

Do you really think that people that are so obsessed with free (in both regards) software that they wont even install one of the two industry standard applications in music production will cheer at the chance to plunk down $500-700 on a single application?

You have to be out of your skull... And BTW, I used to use linux.. and quit because it has a bad selection of apps and is hacked together...

[KeithCu]

I don't run Windows because it is an inferior operating system. It is about quality, not price.

There are people making money on proprietary Linux software: IBM, Oracle, Red Hat, etc. Python is free software, so Ableton is already using free software to make money on proprietary software.

Running on Linux is a totally different issue than the license. I'm not talking about changing the license agreement, only the binaries.

You left Linux too early. I've been using it since 2005 and it has gotten significantly better even since then. Linux gets better as more people use it. So help push on Ableton and then you can go back. The overall value of Debian Linux is enormous and I find it incredibly powerful.

Check out my book. You can get a free download:

-Keith
http://keithcu.com/

[sanosdole]

If I´ll get Ableton + the plugins I own as *nix package, I´ll switch instantly. Mainly for the fine-tuning that´s possible on a *nix system. But I´m also a professional software developer/architect programming on large cross-platform projects for over a decade.
(I wont start discussing about dynamic language vs. strong typed for a application like Live. And not about what UI-Toolkit they currently use. No I wont... Have to behave )

But requesting a *nix port as a high priority requirement is just not sensible. Not from a market or user-base view. It´s only sensible if you love your tools more than your goals. And as you said -> deployment and support for another OS is really expensive. It has to pay back. (I had endless discussions with managers why their rd should participate in open-source projects, and you only convince them with numbers!)

And posting this with a link to a book about *nix vs. micro$oft is...

[KeithCu]

Did you know that Ableton already uses Python?

Someone who lives in Germany pointed this out to me: http://www.itjobboard.de/index.php?xc=1 ... =0&Page=1&

A Linux port is not that hard. You can be sure that in the last 5 years, they've done features less important than this. If their code is clean, it will go fast. Look at Audacity. There is so much cross-platform code out there. Getting the code to run on Linux after you already support Windows and the Mac is not building the Great pyramids. I've done a lot of porting in my life, BTW.

How can you say that support Linux is not sensible if you consider supporting the Mac important, and the marketshares are comparable?

You only look at costs, not at revenues. A good DAW is one of the Linux desktop's top 3 challenges and a huge opportunity now. It would be great for both Ableton and Linux.

There are plenty of numbers out there in support of Linux. The problem is people have already made up their mind. As Ableton doesn't have the product for sale, not have they done the port they can't know for sure it is a bad idea. I think they will find it would cause a nice jump in revenue.

I don't write this for self-promotion. I only write this in hopes that it gets things happening faster. I deal a lot with people who defend the status quo.

[seattletruth]

Did you know that Ableton already uses Python?

First of all, comparing ableton to audacity is laughable. Audacity is childs play compared to Live and was originally written for Linux...

How can you say that support Linux is not sensible if you consider supporting the Mac important, and the marketshares are comparable?

Because people who own Macs are actually in to music production and dont have qualms with paying $700 for proprietary software.

You only look at costs, not at revenues. A good DAW is one of the Linux desktop's top 3 challenges and a huge opportunity now. It would be great for both Ableton and Linux.

An opportunity for what? Nerds to masturbate? The thing you are failing to grasp is -- People who are already in to music production are the majority of people buying live. If they are already into music production, then -- guess what -- they are already on either doze or mac.

There are plenty of numbers out there in support of Linux.

Running as a server, sure. But dude, barely anybody runs it as a desktop system. I ran it for 2 years, and thought the same as you, but it's just not true. Nobody uses linux.

The problem is people have already made up their mind.

So you're saying people should not be able to "make up their minds" unless they agree with your jaded, biased (look at your book) and almost religious/fanatical point of view? You've made up your mind, too.

I used debian from 2004-2005. I used to think it was so much better. But in reality, you don't even own a windows 7 partition, so how do you know how badly it sucks? Just because you "feel yucky" when you use it does not make it horrible. Its a helluva lot more stable than my debian box was even...

As Ableton doesn't have the product for sale, not have they done the port they can't know for sure it is a bad idea.

That's ignorant. You dont think somebody who looks at market data and numbers all day trying to make decisions has the wherewithal to look at things realistically, instead of religiously (unlike yourself).

I think they will find it would cause a nice jump in revenue.

Well, I think your delusional.

Like I said, porting to linux would gain basically NO new clients, because anybody whos actually serious about making music (you know, serious enough to drop $500-700 on some software), would be driven enough to download a version of 7 and install it on a partition in 30 minutes with no hassle, just by clicking 5 buttons.

[KeithCu]

@Seattletruth:

I'm amazed you go to this forum and type up a bunch of text against software freedom. Do you also go to Egyptian forums and defend Mubarak? How ironic that they use Python, but don't support the operating system that Python is written on.

I posted this earlier, but I'll post it again for you:

Sometimes the real hurdle to renewal is not a lack of options, but a lack of flexibility in resource allocation. All too often, legacy projects get richly funded year after year while new initiatives go begging. This, more than anything, is why companies regularly forfeit the future -- they over invest in “what is” at the expense of “what could be.”

New projects are deemed “untested”, “risky”, or a “diversion of resources.” Thus while senior execs may happily fund a billion-dollar acquisition, someone a few levels down who attempts to “borrow” a half-dozen talented individuals for a new project, or carve a few thousand dollars out of a legacy budget, is likely to find the task on par with a dental extraction.

The resource allocation model is typically biased against new ideas, since it demands a level of certainty about volumes, costs, timelines, and profits that simply can't be satisfied when an ideal is truly novel. While it's easy to predict the returns on a project that is a linear extension of an existing business, the payback on an unconventional idea will be harder to calculate.

Managers running established businesses seldom have to defend the strategic risk they take when they pour good money into a slowly decaying business model, or overfund an activity that is already producing diminishing returns.

How do you accelerate the redeployment of resources from legacy programs to future-focused initiatives?

—Gary Hamel, The Future of Management

[KeithCu]

Music production on the iPad is a fad.

Someone told me that their current job postings usually say they are looking for Python. It wouldn't surprise me if this fact were not public. The language they use can be a competitive advantage for them. But it does make their argument about the difficulty of the Linux port more untenable.

Python is not slow compared to C++. You can have 99% Python and have it be fast enough.

Many contributors to Wikipedia use Linux. In fact, Wikipedia runs on Linux.

I'm not saying Linux is more important than every other feature. I spent some time trying to have clear phrasing. My point is that Linux is more important than their least important features. I'm guessing the automatic delay compensation is not their least important feature. I presume you know the difference between least and most important.

The free software movement is not ridiculous. Most free software is not years behind. If you think that, download and read my free book.

The Mubarak reference wasn't meant for you. The point is that people arguing against Linux are arguing against freedom.


-Keith

[seattletruth]

@Seattletruth:

I'm amazed you go to this forum and type up a bunch of text against software freedom. Do you also go to Egyptian forums and defend Mubarak? How ironic that they use Python, but don't support the operating system that Python is written on.

I posted this earlier, but I'll post it again for you:

Wow, I guess responding with lame/irrelevant ad hominem attacks is easier than debating the points I made... I'm a little dissapointed in you, though; I expected better from someone who is verbally adept enough to be an author.

Ah well.

By the way, I support the freedom of Ableton to do whatever the hell they want, and contrairy to your beliefs about myself, I actually *support* linux. I think its a great platform and serves a legitimate purpose as well as providing competition to make other OS's better (atleast in the server market). But it's my opinion that a lot of customers would be pissed if they decided to make an ignorant business decision and cater to a non-existant customer base rather than to give Live much needed functionality and upgrades... There are many more who feel the same, and I'm exercising my freedom of speech to say that. *Gasp* By using your own logic, you must hate freedom of speech because you don't like mine, so you really support Gaddafi slaughtering protesters! .... but only Glenn Beck (and you) uses this retarded (lack of) logic, so I'll refrain...

But the whole point is really moot though, seeing as Ableton is about MAKING MONEY, not religious fanaticism towards Linux, (unlike you) so they would never make such a disastrous business decision.

[KeithCu]

@seattletruth:

The Mubarak reference was not an attack, it was meant as an analogy between software freedom and real-world freedom. If you see code running on Linux as a freedom issue, in addition to a business decision, it is helpful.

I never suggested they should work only on the Linux port. A team can work on multiple things at the same time. My point is they could cut some lesser features to enable Linux that most wouldn't even notice. Presumably Live is a mature product and so not every feature is still critical.

I agree this is about making money. The point is that no one knows how much you would make so it is a bet. That is why that quote from Gary Hamel above is relevant. I think Live on Linux could do well. Lots of people are making money on Linux and it is a growing business. I think it will help increase their Windows and Mac sales as well. Some people might run multiple systems, or move between them. Knowing that something runs on Linux gives people confidence. It is such a massive opportunity. If it doesn't do well, it is because they failed promoting it, etc. Failure is never a final disposition.

[KeithCu]

The consensus that Python is slower is wrong. Mercurial is faster than CVS / SVN.

Your idea that the free software movement is ridiculous is also wrong.

Here is an example of something that is better than what you'd get from any proprietary vendor:
http://scipy.org/Topical_Software

If you know a lot about free software you should be able to point to many technologies like that.

Your rant about OpenOffice is old and wrong. The Mac support is fine now. Have you seen the code to Microsoft Word or Photoshop? If so, you wouldn't use them again.

I'm not asking someone to provide their property to me. I'm asking them to sell me their product on an operating system that I have chosen to use.

If you think supporting Linux is a disastrous business decision, it just means you are looking backwards instead of forwards.

-Keith

[fedexnman]

i heard disney uses linux . maybe they do there animation/pixar
using linux ?

[KeithCu]

They might consider programming language information a trade secret so unless you are part of the company, I wouldn't expect you to know what is going on with regards to C++ and Python. But I can tell you that you can build an Ableton Live in 99% Python and that would be faster than the current version. (My tools chapter explains this more.)

I only point out the freedom issue because it gets forgotten sometimes. I assumed people inside Ableton had not any experience in Linux. But when I found out they use Linux and like it and they still don't support it, then it is worth reminding them.

So: Linux is free, superior in certain ways, good enough overall, the future, gets better as more people use it, a huge growth opportunity for music-making software, Python can be ported via the cp command, and supporting Linux after supporting the Mac and Windows is easy.

To me it adds up to a slam dunk. But of course, if they knew all that already, they would already have done it so it is never that easy.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm just stating things like if Ableton disappeared, it would probably be better for Linux.

We end the topic after you agree with me Or perhaps we wait a few more years until it eventually sinks in and they support Linux and then we don't have to argue whether it is worth doing. I will just end with a reminder that they could fix it in the next release by only removing features users wouldn't care that much about.

-Keith