Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
EnjoyRC
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Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by EnjoyRC » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:38 pm

Is there a way to access a MIDI event editor in Ableton Live? Many DAWs have um. It'd be great to see the events in a MIDI clip.
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3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:48 pm

:lol: :lol:

you are new to the software? forget everything you and the world have learned about working with midi..

we experiance the fresh new feel of a reinvention of midi editing..and we are now only in year 7 of this enormous task..so dont expect too much form abletons midi.. Rom wasnt build in 7 years either...

and to spare you more questions in that direction..
There is no sys ex support.. multichannel support..or intelligent quantisation algorythms or latency free midi thru or all note of commands...and of cause there is no event editor ..
There is not even a midi delay available...

For audio and midi production live is not the ideal software...
Its for stage use.. just crashes from time to time..
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roxxx303
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by roxxx303 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:08 pm

EnjoyRC wrote:Is there a way to access a MIDI event editor in Ableton Live? Many DAWs have um. It'd be great to see the events in a MIDI clip.
There is no eventlist, but you can see the midi-events when you click a midi clip and make the "envelope"-window (e) visible. There are the midi-controler-events as envelopes selectable and editable. To draw new envelopes for CC#74 (cutoff) for example it's not bad, but if you want to delete all midi-events you must select each envelope and right click "delete envelope".

@3Phase: Why are you soo sarcastic? You are a long time user. You must have got used to it! :lol:
(I use live since version 1 - I know about the live weaknesses so I understand your sarcasm - waiting for Live 9 for month checking webpage everyday! :mrgreen: )

EnjoyRC
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by EnjoyRC » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:12 pm

3phase wrote::lol: :lol:

you are new to the software? forget everything you and the world have learned about working with midi..

we experiance the fresh new feel of a reinvention of midi editing..and we are now only in year 7 of this enormous task..so dont expect too much form abletons midi.. Rom wasnt build in 7 years either...

and to spare you more questions in that directiom..
ther is no sys ex suport.. multichannel support..or intelligent quantisation algorythms or latency free midi thru or all note of commands...and of cause there is no event editor ..
There is not even a midi delay available...

For audio and midi production live is not the ideal software...
Its for stage use.. just crashes from time to time..
Definitely not new to Ableton Live. Been a constant user since v2. Just recently had different needs and it's making me poke around in different areas.

<< we've both been here nearly as long as each other.

:lol: Yeah... I've already been down the Forum road about SysEx. But, these are all things that support LIVE performances. They're not just studio tweaks. I only use Live for live performances. I've always been proud of the way it can automate your entire stage/show. I just wanna dig in a bit deeper into the MIDI capabilities.
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3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:30 pm

roxxx303 wrote:
EnjoyRC wrote:Is there a way to access a MIDI event editor in Ableton Live? Many DAWs have um. It'd be great to see the events in a MIDI clip.
There is no eventlist, but you can see the midi-events when you click a midi clip and make the "envelope"-window (e) visible. There are the midi-controler-events as envelopes selectable and editable. To draw new envelopes for CC#74 (cutoff) for example it's not bad, but if you want to delete all midi-events you must select each envelope and right click "delete envelope".

@3Phase: Why are you soo sarcastic? You are a long time user. You must have got used to it! :lol:
(I use live since version 1 - I know about the live weaknesses so I understand your sarcasm - waiting for Live 9 for month checking webpage everyday! :mrgreen: )

yeah..you got used to it by not using it... but see the fact..7 years for a midi implematation like that? what have theese ableton peole done all this years?

in comparison see what happens inbetween the introduction of midi and 1991... actually we have seen the completly evoultion of midi allready in this years.. and ableton is not even able to allow to record mutiple channles in one clip? i ve to record 4 tracks to do a midi recording of my nord modular..that really helps the overview and setup times...

Lives midi implementation was a bad joke from day one and still is..

you have to quantize because it randomnly places the incoming notes along the timelines.. i measured derivations up to 7 ms...

some call it a human factor ..i call it screewing up the recording...

Just one question.. how can you bother integrating max and serato stuff before you havent managed a midi implemetation?..
are you as a software company really up to the task ?

Dont looks like it when you ask me.. and even if they get it done.. its the wrong order in the to do list..and wrong time scedules.. we are in the year 2011.. i would say 3 years development time for a comprehensiv midi is what we can expect.

but 7 years for this? we are all fools ...
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:36 pm

3phase wrote: you have to quantize because it randomnly places the incoming notes along the timelines.. i measured derivations up to 7 ms...
go into Options.txt and type in

-StrictDelayCompensation


just like that

3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:41 pm

Angstrom wrote:
3phase wrote: you have to quantize because it randomnly places the incoming notes along the timelines.. i measured derivations up to 7 ms...
go into Options.txt and type in

-StrictDelayCompensation


just like that

and what does that do? you have a propper working midi event recording along the timeline than?
any negative side fx?
and where do you have learned about that? is that documented anywhere?
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:44 pm

it may not resolve your issues, but it resolved a lot of mine. It relates to the horror of "play through" optimisation
http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/options_text
"StrictDelayCompensation"
This disables Live's play-through optimization.
When delay compensation is on, don't play-through optimize (favor exact sync over low latency).
Example: -StrictDelayCompensation
personally I favour exact sync.

weird that.

negative side effects:
hmm, well play through optimisation is intended for people who play and manually play quicker to react against the latency of their system. So they hear their 'piano' is 15ms late, so they play 15 ms faster against the beat.Personally I don't play like that, I dont play faster if my audio is lagged. I always aim to play on time, to the beat and hope my midi goes on the beat. I play 'to the metronome', not to my audio. Because playing in large reverberant halls has educated me to ignore latent monitoring and aim for the beat.

With PDC on and play through optimisation active (as it always is) you can play on the beat all you like, but Live will assume you are playing ahead of the beat and so put the notes further back on the timeline than you actually played them
Let me tell you that I have vented at Ableton on this issue.

the fix - if you are like me and do not want your notes delayed is to use the option provided above.

When you do this, your notes will now be on the beat.

As I say - this may not resolve everyone's issues, but its sure stoppped me from smashing my computer to bits with a hammer.

3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:54 pm

Angstrom wrote:it may not resolve your issues, but it resolved a lot of mine. It relates to the horror of "play through" optimisation
http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/options_text
"StrictDelayCompensation"
This disables Live's play-through optimization.
When delay compensation is on, don't play-through optimize (favor exact sync over low latency).
Example: -StrictDelayCompensation
personally I favour exact sync.

weird that.

when i play something on the keyboard i prefer my daw to replay what i played.. not a pisstake version of that..
when i want to sound like a drunk i prefer to do the drinking myself..

but i am not sure what theese option really is supposed to do..teh latecy is fixed by the audio driver..

and its not about play thru..its about recording of incoming events... the of cause need to be placed latency compensated otherwise the events will play back later as they was intended..

so you either the coreect timing information but too late..or random placed events in time?

is that supposed to be a joke?
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:58 pm

3phase wrote: but i am not sure what theese option really is supposed to do..teh latecy is fixed by the audio driver..
it's in my edited / updated post

"play through" is a weird idea, for some people's playing style it makes sense.

to me it makes my life hell and I am glad I found the way to turn it off. It just makes all my notes fall behind the beat

3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:01 pm

Angstrom wrote:
3phase wrote: but i am not sure what theese option really is supposed to do..teh latecy is fixed by the audio driver..
it's in my edited / updated post

"play through" is a weird idea, for some people's playing style it makes sense.

to me it makes my life hell and I am glad I found the way to turn it off. It just makes all my notes fall behind the beat

but what is that text string do actually? is it only affecting the midi handling? and are the resulting midi events than placed at the timeline + audio offset delay and therfore the playback track needs to get a manual negativ track delay?

why isnt that a problem in any other daw?
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3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:07 pm

just read your edited posting.. but..

this dont sounds like anything random related..

my problem is that the result in itself is not what ive played.. independent from earlier or late.. its just bad timing wise..

also have the impression that this was going worse with L.822.. was bad in L8.1x...

but cant say for certain but i had the impression that it was ok for a while.. depnds of cause on the sounds you play..on slow stringchords its not so obvious as on basslines..

i anyway will go back to 8.21 next time i dare to launch the program
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EnjoyRC
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by EnjoyRC » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:12 pm

3phase wrote:i anyway will go back to 8.21 next time i dare to launch the program
What are you using now? (I'm scared to ask... opening a can of worms... 8) )
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3phase
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by 3phase » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:16 pm

EnjoyRC wrote:
3phase wrote:i anyway will go back to 8.21 next time i dare to launch the program
What are you using now? (I'm scared to ask... opening a can of worms... 8) )
was on L8.22 since it came up..but was no fun..
on my machine more problematic than the previous version that at least only crashed on known operations like changing routings while running...
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton MIDI Event Editor

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:28 pm

3phase wrote: but what is that text string do actually? is it only affecting the midi handling? and are the resulting midi events than placed at the timeline + audio offset delay and therfore the playback track needs to get a manual negativ track delay?

why isnt that a problem in any other daw?
When play-through is on: it will take any incoming note (lets say it comes in on 8.1.1), it will take a look at the current PDC and see that there is a system latency of (lets say) 15ms, and because it thinks you have played 15ms ahead of the beat in order to manually compensate for the system's latency it will put the recorded note 15ms back from 8.1.1 . The resulting recorded MIDI note will now be visible on the timeline actually later than you played it.

When the text string is active it turns off this guessing system. It stops Live from thinking you played ahead of the beat, which means the system now knows that you are NOT playing ahead of the beat, so it should NOT try to move the note backward in time by 15 ms.

I could write a lot on the madness of "Play Through", but it makes me angry just thinking about it.
If I do write about it, it may be best to put it in its own thread, explaining in detail what it is and how to stop it, and why you might want to. The topic is possibly to large for a thread about something completely different.

I have voiced my displeasure to the Abletons in strong terms
even thinking about it now makes me want to hurt something.

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