gear/software purchasing progression

[skamunista]

So i'm currently using live lite 8 on an imac with a 2-octave m-audio oxygen keyboard and a korg nanopad, both of which i picked up used. I play in a band that gets money for gigs on occasion but am otherwise generally a broke student who will hopefully be teaching in a year. I just recently narrowly decided not to buy a thinkpad--again because i'm broke and there will always be a laptop to buy, but what should be my gear/software purchasing plan? I was thinking I could start saving half my gig money and gradually build up. Obviously I will eventually need a laptop for live performance and general life (and for now i would more likely be playing with a band than djing or making beats)

1-Audio Interface?
2-Laptop?
3-something with a whole bunch of midi dials and sliders?
4-APC 40? Is this pretty much a standard requirement?

[doghouse]

I'd say it's a tossup between the laptop and the audio interface because you'll eventually want both.

As long as you are comfortable with dragging an iMac around, then I suppose the audio interface comes first....plus it's cheaper than a laptop. If using the iMac is a hassle, then get the laptop first.

So when you gig today how do you hook up to the sound system?

[m.o]

About the APC40 thing - you might want to look at something like a Novation launchpad + korg Nanokontrol instead if budget is tight.

[antarktika]

I use the launchpad/nanokontrol, and I think it works great. There's a script called nanokontrolmyr that maps the nanokontrol to ableton nicely, so it's possible to get basically the same functionality as an APC. I for one recommend it if you're on a budget, or just want a more lightweight and portable solution to the brick that is the APC. If you're playing live though I'd say the audio interface is probably one of the first things you should be looking into.

[skamunista]

as of now i'm only playing trumpet and cowbell live, so i don't hook up any sound system. i'm pretty bewildered by the whole laptop->mixer relationship and frankly i'm not even totally clear on what an audio interface is... like a fancy external sound card that has extra channels for monitoring?

basically right now i am living in a cramped apartment that has limited space for lots of sound equipment, especially around the computer, but learning with just the mouse and some midi controllers is hard (or maybe easier than if i had even more bells and whistles to mess with). I'd like a nice, stable progression that will be rewarding enough for me to not give up and affordable enough that i don't go broke.

More specific and personal: I'm in chicago with a beautiful summer and a nasty winter. i'll be student teaching for most of the 11-12 academic year and then hopefully employed as a teacher in a comparatively lucrative job a year from now. So i'd like to develop some chops with live and general music production (currently no chops) over the coming 9 months or so before embarking on a successful career as a dj and electronic/world fusion artist of some sort who moonlights as a teacher. btw any chance ableton would loan me a code for full live suite in the mean time? i feel like such a baby in here.

[Warrior Bob]

i'm pretty bewildered by the whole laptop->mixer relationship and frankly i'm not even totally clear on what an audio interface is... like a fancy external sound card that has extra channels for monitoring?

Mostly yes. "Soundcard" and "audio interface" are basically synonymous, although an interface carries a connotation of being more oriented towards recording, and are often external.

learning with just the mouse and some midi controllers is hard (or maybe easier than if i had even more bells and whistles to mess with). I'd like a nice, stable progression that will be rewarding enough for me to not give up and affordable enough that i don't go broke.

If you already have some MIDI controllers and a good machine, that's pretty much everything you need to learn and play. Your iMac has a competent sound output (and I think input, too?) which work great with Ableton Live. More bells and whistles tend to confuse the matter unless you're particularly inspired by one of them, at which point get just that one and learn all the cool things you can do with it. The only thing I can think of that you can't already do at some level with the tools you have is play out - and even then, the iMac is just really awkward, not incapable of it.

I'd say don't get the laptop until you specifically need or want that - if you get it early, then when you really need it, it'll be older but you'd already have spent the same money.

Ditto for the audio interface: get it when there's a need. If you want to record from good microphones, which generally use XLR connectors, then you'll most likely want to get an interface now.

When learning music production, you're going to be spending lots of time with the keyboard and mouse. One MIDI controller to try out changing values in realtime is a fantastic idea (your nanopad is a good start for this, something with knobs such as the nanoKontrol would be even better), but once you're in the swing of things, the mouse will probably see more use, because it's faster. Where MIDI controllers like the APC really shine is realtime performance. Generally I say learn your existing tools' capabilities and limitations before buying more of them.

Honestly, I don't think you have to buy anything yet!

any chance ableton would loan me a code for full live suite in the mean time? i feel like such a baby in here.

Probably not, but the demo version of Live is fully functional minus saving your work! You can try out anything you want to do and there's no reason you can't get quite good at using Ableton as a hybrid recording environment/instrument without ever saving a single thing.

[antarktika]

Warriorbob posted a bunch of these sentiments already while I was typing this up, but I will post it anyway:

I notice you didn't list speakers among your acquisition list, not sure what you're using to play through now, but a good pair of studio monitors is going to be something to consider, you might want to hold off on that 'till you're financially able to invest a good chunk in some decent ones though, as that is a purchase you will be kicking yourself for if you go cheap. An audio interface is, at it's more basic incarnation, a way for you to record external sound into your computer (live cowbell recording perhaps? you can never have enough of those) and usually have at least 2 stereo outputs, for monitoring and playing out, definitely a must if you want to DJ because you'll need that monitor to hear what's going on in your mix. I started cheap, with a pair of m-audio bx5a's directly into my Imac's audio jack, the oxygen 25 you've got, Reason 3, and the copy of live lite that came with my keyboard. Honestly, I think it's best to make do with what you've got, spending what little money you can right now is just going to leave you wanting for better stuff along the line, when you should really be focused on how to produce music. You've got a keyboard with a bank of rotaries, and some pads courtesy of the nano, hell, you've even got an x/y pad (awesome for mapping to the the xy that pops up on most ableton devices btw), that should be enough to enter in notes and adjust filters, etc... I'm not sure what version of live you are using right now, but if you feel lacking for instruments, there are loads of free, and capable vst's you can find and download here: http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php
I'd get more to grips with production, while you further your career goals, then you'll have more cash to drop on some stuff that will be more than a compromise decision. Though I stand by my advice that a launchpad and nanokontrol is a decent working alternative to the apc, and much better in terms of space.

[skamunista]

Thanks, everyone. The google has figured out that i am visiting a lot of these websites and now i get ads for the big audio stores on every website i go to. So i'll just tell myself no new purchases in the short term, maybe a launchpad/nanokontrol in the medium term. if i were to bring my ancient 2gb laptop to a band practice though--we have a mixer--what would i need to do to connect to the board? would 1/8>rca cables be enough? would that thing even run live 8? it is literally a hand-me-down from my grandma currently dual booting xp and linux mint, though i was wondering if i should switch to win 7 before trying live.

also: is the suite demo not only 30 days? my worry was that since i wont be able to afford it for some time i should wait till i'm competent enough with it to get the most out of my 30 days.

And i guess i need to figure out if i want a midi turntable thing and what other parts that would or could make redundant.

realistically, is it possible for one with basic music theory knowledge to learn this without thousand-dollar clinics and such? without going to school for music production or writing a thesis on compressor knees or anything? i bought a live book online and hope to get deeper in the break between semesters and once the weather gets nasty, but between synths (what originally drew me towards this) and the interface itself and the whole recording/audio side it seems like such a big elephant to eat.

[Warrior Bob]

if i were to bring my ancient 2gb laptop to a band practice though--we have a mixer--what would i need to do to connect to the board? would 1/8>rca cables be enough? would that thing even run live 8? it is literally a hand-me-down from my grandma currently dual booting xp and linux mint, though i was wondering if i should switch to win 7 before trying live.

You're in luck! Most mixers allow for line level RCA or 1/4" phone inputs. Your laptop's headphone out is at this level and can be safely plugged into such a mixer using just such an adapter. I do this at home.

You'll probably have some trouble running a bunch of modern effects or instruments on a system that old, but you might be able to get away with enough to play with your friends. I don't know if Live runs any better or worse on Windows 7, but it is now supported under Windows 7 as of version 8.0.8.

The easiest way to know is to try it with the demo.

also: is the suite demo not only 30 days? my worry was that since i wont be able to afford it for some time i should wait till i'm competent enough with it to get the most out of my 30 days.

The way I thought it worked was that 30 days is full-featured, and after that you can only use "demo" mode which enables everything, but you can't save your work. Can someone clarify this?

And i guess i need to figure out if i want a midi turntable thing and what other parts that would or could make redundant.

Figure out if something like that suits your needs. Live isn't well-suited to traditional turntable-style DJing. You can't scratch without using some kind of plugin, although DJ-style controllers like that can have their own uses. For more traditional DJing I'd say look to something like Serato or Traktor or even Mixxx.

realistically, is it possible for one with basic music theory knowledge to learn this without thousand-dollar clinics and such? without going to school for music production or writing a thesis on compressor knees or anything? i bought a live book online and hope to get deeper in the break between semesters and once the weather gets nasty, but between synths (what originally drew me towards this) and the interface itself and the whole recording/audio side it seems like such a big elephant to eat.

It is absolutely possible to learn it. You have a book already, so go for it. You don't have to learn it all at once, and there's a lot to be learned if you want to. You said you got in originally through synthesizers, so start with that angle and see what you can do with a synth in Live. Eventually, try something else you wouldn't have tried before (mixing? finer points of reverb? cutting up samples to make drumloops? using your synth as a vocoder input?).

Once you're making more of a career out of it, then I'd say some professional classes would probably be worth the money. At that point, it's an investment, so you expect to gain more than the cost of them back with your new skills.

FWIW, the Live manual is excellent, as are things like the Dubspot or Tom Cosm youtube tutorials. And you can always ask around when you have questions! Don't worry about your setup and just make something cool

EDIT: It's probably worth mentioning that I'm not a professional anything with Live, just a hobbyist. If that matters.

[antarktika]

that actually brings up an interesting idea, is it possible to download all of the trial versions in succession? you might look into that, get intro and a couple free vsts for synths (subtractive, fm, etc...) and get generally acquainted, learn some basic concepts of synthesis from your vst synths, figure out how drum racks work, etc... When that runs it's course, get the trial basic ableton, continue with your experiments, get used to all the things you can do in the clip and arrangement modes, and once you have more familiarity with that, you can use what you've learned with your free vst synths and download the Suite trial and get to grips with the instruments that come with that. Then you'd have 2 months of getting used to it before you downloaded suite, and probably a better idea of how different types of synths work. You gotta start somewhere, right? and this might be a good way to ease into suite, if it is possible at all. I don't know if anyone has this information, but it seems like since they are separate products you could download each of the trials in succession.

[doghouse]

skamunista,

Back up a bit...you have Live Lite but are not using it with your ciurent band. Do you want to use it with this band or is your goal something else entirely?

For working at home you really don't need anything beyond what you currently have unless you want to record sources outside of Live (microphones, electric guitars, etc.) . I was using Live 7 on a laptop with no audio interface just fine.

For recording of sources outside of Live at home, you'll need an audio interface. While Macs have good audio outputs they are not well equipped with inputs.

For gigs, while you can patch from the headphone out into a mixer directly you'll often run into grounding problems causing hums and buzzes, etc. An audio interface will help with that, provide a master volume control and provide 1/4" or XLR outputs that pro mixing boards use for inputs...no need for adapter cables.