the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[9V]

Obviously he's saying that a musician can hear the audio and reproduce it by playing or editing it into a sequencer, thus transforming what is contained in the audio into MIDI.

Oh, but it just called "transcription" in music. Nothing to do with "midi", it is when musicians render popular songs "music" or harmonize tunes.

[rote fahne]

Obviously he's saying that a musician can hear the audio and reproduce it by playing or editing it into a sequencer, thus transforming what is contained in the audio into MIDI.

Oh, but it just called "transcription" in music. Nothing to do with "midi", it is when musicians render popular songs "music" or harmonize tunes.

Everything to do with MIDI.

[stringtapper]

Obviously he's saying that a musician can hear the audio and reproduce it by playing or editing it into a sequencer, thus transforming what is contained in the audio into MIDI.

Oh, but it just called "transcription" in music. Nothing to do with "midi", it is when musicians render popular songs "music" or harmonize tunes.

Transcription doesn't have to have anything to do with MIDI but it CAN as soon as I enter the transcription into an editor. So once again your rigid thinking fails.

[rote fahne]

Obviously he's saying that a musician can hear the audio and reproduce it by playing or editing it into a sequencer, thus transforming what is contained in the audio into MIDI.

Oh, but it just called "transcription" in music. Nothing to do with "midi", it is when musicians render popular songs "music" or harmonize tunes.

Transcription doesn't have to have anything to do with MIDI but it CAN as soon as I enter the transcription into an editor. So once again your rigid thinking fails.

Yep, he's gonna play stiffhead now.

[crofter]

Music is when one (as a musician) can write, read, perform and edit it. Otherwise it is sound. A cd is not "music" because you cannot edit it anymore, just listening to it (but "listening" is something not indispensable for music, only a consequence: see the john cage 4'33 joke). MIDI is music because every musician can edit, write, read and change it. Score is music, too.

EXAMPLE: a little kid learning music rudiments composed an easy song based on a very simple harmonic progression. He can write it, read it, edit it, play it. This is music. A very creative "music maker" samples 2 minutes of a pollini concert, 2 minutes of a professional violinist playing paganini and mixes these 2 audio tracks in a sequencer. The result is fantastic (... of course, LOL). Is this music? No, it is a beautiful collage. Why? Because the performer is not the creative guy, he cannot play that music, he cannot edit it in a musical language, he just mangles, chops up sound (not music). You can call it "a beautiful collage", you can call the guy "an artist" etc. but you cannot call the result "music" in a musical sense (both "traditionally" or "modern" intended). And if he uses midifiles instead of recordings? I don't know how to call that... maybe "copycat opera", who knows...

EXAMPLE 2: things like dj schratches, rap, noise performances, loop feedback, ableton live using samples and loops in real time, etc. are music, of course.

This is of course your opinion which you are entitled to, not one I share, you have a very narrow view of what constitutes music, I listen to music from whatever source, a piece of paper with notes written on it is not music it is a set of instructions to guide a musician on how to play someones composition, a midi sequence is also a set of instructions for the software to interpret it is not music, you are gravely mistaken in your assertions.

[stringtapper]

And even more grave is the manner in which he has presented his argument. His opinion is merely that, but his argument in support of it is a total failure.

[rote fahne]

And even more grave is the manner in which he has presented his argument. His opinion is merely that, but his argument in support of it is a total failure.

Yeh, calling this topic: the topic of topics, for me already an indication.

[9V]

I don't know, i cannot see counterpoints. Some here say "your's just an opinion" or "you have a narrow view" etc. But these are only emotive answers, IMO. That is when people, rather thant giving nice, strong arguments, tell names or tend to insult, as a defence. I wonder how can audio be considered "music" (unless in a naive, commonsense definition). Music is not the sound, it is the code. You can call the tolling bells of a church or the singing of the birds, or the voice of one you love "music" if you are a poet. But what i meant was something techincal, not emotive.

[stringtapper]

I don't know, i cannot see counterpoints. Some here say "your's just an opinion" or "you have a narrow view" etc. But these are only emotive answers, IMO. That is when people, rather thant giving nice, strong arguments, tell names or tend to insult, as a defence. I wonder how can audio be considered "music" (unless in a naive, commonsense definition). Music is not the sound, it is the code. You can call the tolling bells of a church or the singing of the birds, or the voice of one you love "music" if you are a poet. But what i meant was something techincal, not emotive.

I did not give an emotive answer. Rather I demonstrated the contradiction in your thinking, but you have chosen to ignore that and not answer my post and instead you have continued to repeat the same things you have said I earlier posts. If you can't answer to these contradictions and offer better support for your argument then I have no choice but to consider it a failure.

[9V]

I did not give an emotive answer. Rather I demonstrated the contradiction in your thinking, but you have chosen to ignore that and not answer my post and instead you have continued to repeat the same things you have said I earlier posts. If you can't answer to these contradictions and offer better support for your argument then I have no choice but to consider it a failure.

Your's just a rethorical strategy, it has nothing to do with the topic (audio vs midi). It is like the ones who learn NLP to sell people useless objects, LOL. I cannot consider that an answer, because it is an attack against my (supposed) "contraddiction", not an argument, just a (relative) opinion about my logics...

[stringtapper]

I did not give an emotive answer. Rather I demonstrated the contradiction in your thinking, but you have chosen to ignore that and not answer my post and instead you have continued to repeat the same things you have said I earlier posts. If you can't answer to these contradictions and offer better support for your argument then I have no choice but to consider it a failure.

Your's just a rethorical strategy, it has nothing to do with the topic (audio vs midi). It is like the ones who learn NLP to sell useless objects, LOL

My initial post in this thread is not rhetorical. I made a clear case pertaining to the topic why your argument is confused and not well reasoned. You have yet to answer it. I'm assuming now that you cannot answer it.

[macmurphy]

9V, are you trying to suck all the joy out of music?

you say you are trying to have a serious discussion but then you say that audio is not music.
apparently midi is music. notation is music. no. you're wrong. they are instructions on how to perform music.
they are just like the instructions you find in the latest piece of swedish flat-pack furniture - follow them correctly
and the result will (hopefully) be as the designer/composer intended.
slicing up and using audio to create music then is much like taking your newly built swedish chair and re-assembling it
as a table - it's still furniture/music (...stay with me here..) but you've now created something new and different from the original intended result.

please forgive me if that analogy got away from me there at the end. i'm tired

[crofter]

There is no music without sound, it is the sound, the movement of air that conveys the emotion and or mood that is the whole point of music in the first place, everything else is just a means to an end.

[antarktika]

You basically insulted everyone that has a definition that doesn't agree with yours with that post, completely disregarding any arguments or discussion on a matter which you say you're interested in. While the original discussion was "MIDI vs. audio" it quickly was introduced that you thought MIDI was music, audio was not - thus this discussion began and now you're dismissing people as "naive" or not musicians when they have a different definition of music than you. To me, THIS is childish behavior.

And they banned me

now that we're 6 pages in, are any of you beginning to get that you are never going to win this argument, because it has already been won everywhere but in 9V's mind, where he is just going to engage in a feedback loop of repetitious assertion that his statements are the only truth? Trust me, this conversation went on for about 40 pages at the Propellerhead forums, run away!

[rote fahne]

I don't know, i cannot see counterpoints. Some here say "your's just an opinion" or "you have a narrow view" etc. But these are only emotive answers, IMO. That is when people, rather thant giving nice, strong arguments, tell names or tend to insult, as a defence. I wonder how can audio be considered "music" (unless in a naive, commonsense definition). Music is not the sound, it is the code. You can call the tolling bells of a church or the singing of the birds, or the voice of one you love "music" if you are a poet. But what i meant was something techincal, not emotive.

You know what I think, you just made this topic up to invalidate Propellerheads.

Rewire is only audio, so you decided that audio is not music, cause then it would be obvious for you that Rewire really sucked, cause it had nothing to do with music.

Took me a while to understand, but now it is all perfectly clear to me.