Opinions on playing guitar live through Ableton...latency?

[ras3248]

After about a year of learning Ableton (and many more playing guitar) I really want to incorporate Ableton into a live performance. Being a guitarist, I want to run my guitar through Guitar Rig 4 live. I know there are a lot of other threads about reducing latency, and yes I have read quite a few of them (and yea im still a noob), but I'm just wondering what other people who actually do run a guitar through Ableton in the course of their performances do, and how they do it.

Personally I'm playing into a PreSonus FireBox through Guitar Rig 4/Ableton then back out of the FireBox, all on my Macbook Pro (2.66ghz duo and 4gb). The latency, even after reducing the sample rate to the lowest acceptable level, is still too much to think about using it in a live setting.

What do you do?

[agent314]

What kind of latency are you getting, and what sample rate?

I have about 20ms total round trip latency, and that's fine for me using GR4.

[ras3248]

around 17ms latency with around 200 samples...low samples scare me because sometimes when i start heavily effecting the guitar in GR4 it will break up and lose the signal. seems risky live, guess i just need to get more comfortable with it.

just curious, how do you run your guitar into your computer?

im thinking a new soundcard is essential for me

[savyurrecords]

RME supposedly get great latency values. Are you getting 20 ms latency one way? or round trip? I find it necessary to get to about 15ms or less one way. I have used Live to do live guitar looping with my crappy old laptop (celeron 1.7 ghz) and echo audio interface, it worked for me.You should be able to get it to work with your setup.

[rasputin]

Just for my setup I sort of gave up.

I use my Line6 PodXT to push unprocessed signal into Live via the USB interface, but what I actually listen to is the processed output of the Pod, mixed in with the Live output. This gives me 0 latency and I can tweak the guitar part to my heart's content on the back side.

Been using the (free) Voxengo BoogeX guitar amp sim mostly lately and getting real happy results out of it. I might use Dirthead 0.80 (also free) for good distorted tones. I've set up a Rack with direct, Dirthead and BoogeX layers and can mix and match them easily by mapping some dials.

[ras3248]

17ms roundtrip through my MacBook pros internal sound card. Looking at Motu stuff currently, anyone have any input about these units being used for live guitar playing specifically? I assume they'd be better than my PreSonus...

[duckpow]

...through my MacBook pros internal sound card.

...
Well... there is your problem!

[ras3248]

...through my MacBook pros internal sound card.

...
Well... there is your problem!

I know...guitar optimized sound card suggestions?

[crumhorn]

Under Windows with my Presonus Firepod set to the 4ms setting and high cpu mode (in the tool tray icon's context menu) I get a round trip delay of 14.5 mS.

On my 3 year old viao I can use quite a few effects on the track before the sound starts to break up. eg one or two of Ableton's guitar processing racks. I generally find that it's best to turn off delay compensation when playing live through Live otherwise your guitar seems to get even more delayed to match effect chains on other tracks. (not sure if that is totally right, it's a purely subjective impression)

I find at this latency it's playable but can start to become more noticeable as you pile on the effects.

For ultimate low latency a rack build pc with an internal sound card would be the best option. FireWire and USB will always impose extra overheads.

[Jabbon]

I play the bass directly through Live sampled trhough a MOTU.
For my Live sets I use a MOTU ultralite mk3 FW, latency values in Live with 256Samples*Buffer is 6.78ms in:: 6.8 ms out
total 13.58.
I am not considering the unavoidable latency from Sampling and File transfer (FW, USB, etc.etc.etc...)
And I would also say, go for FW, till the produce some "Thunder" compatible audio card under the zillions of euros.
Allows effective bass playing, on the groove. Course recording a clip has to be accompanied by the DEC, but still...
I got quite a complex Live set, although the actual playback is only on from 8 tracks there is a lot of controlling going on, there are 4 sends and each track+return has loads of effects (m4l + Live) NO EXTERNAL VST, especially from Native, which I love, but they suck in CPU management.
Whenever I hook up a NI device (whatever) I just start to have the need of higher numbers of Samples in the Buffer == more latency.

With Max/MSP, 8 tracks, each with a sampling/recycling module, but with the halve of the effects in post chain I can speed up to 64!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Samples per buffer.

In synthesis, No guitar Rig, and make your own Effects Devices in Live + of course, no internal audio card...

We are talkin live of course, in studio there is another process.


BTW Yes RME has better latency management, in general better HW converters, but are also less sturdy for live performances and the software side, well it is RME...

MOTU is with Mac from the beginning of Mac...

[Cezband]

I work with about 20ms latency, it's not really noticeable to a listener it's just a case of getting used to that ever-so-slight delay when you're hitting the strings.

What I realised is that Guitar Rig is just too hungry for live use, assuming you have other stuff going on in your set (beats, synths and the like). If you're using Live as a massive multi-effects rack and little else, you can get away with it but otherwise I'd say the first step is to move away from Guitar Rig.

I'd put something like a line6 pod to do the GR job, and that'll take away processor load allowing you to run a tighter latency without getting clicks and pops. My current method is to go into my interface clean (Saffire 6 USB), then take a mono out to the pod, then from the pod to either an amp or a seperate channel on the PA. So channels 1 + 2 are the stereo Ableton Live tracks, and channel 3 is just guitar (but still routed through the Live effects so delays, beat repeat etc are still in time with what's coming out of 1 + 2.). Doing it this way gives you or the sound guy more options for mixing the guitar in with the other stuff too.

[crumhorn]

...it's just a case of getting used to that ever-so-slight delay when you're hitting the strings...

We should think ourselves lucky we don't play the pipe organ. I used to know a guy who played organ in a church and he routinely had to play about a quarter of a second in front of the the music he was hearing. I think it's called musicianship.

[3dot...]

if it's just a multi-fx for guitar...what do you need Live for...?
Guitarig standalone ftw...

[ras3248]

I play the bass directly through Live sampled trhough a MOTU.
For my Live sets I use a MOTU ultralite mk3 FW, latency values in Live with 256Samples*Buffer is 6.78ms in:: 6.8 ms out
total 13.58.
I am not considering the unavoidable latency from Sampling and File transfer (FW, USB, etc.etc.etc...)
And I would also say, go for FW, till the produce some "Thunder" compatible audio card under the zillions of euros.
Allows effective bass playing, on the groove. Course recording a clip has to be accompanied by the DEC, but still...
I got quite a complex Live set, although the actual playback is only on from 8 tracks there is a lot of controlling going on, there are 4 sends and each track+return has loads of effects (m4l + Live) NO EXTERNAL VST, especially from Native, which I love, but they suck in CPU management.
Whenever I hook up a NI device (whatever) I just start to have the need of higher numbers of Samples in the Buffer == more latency.

With Max/MSP, 8 tracks, each with a sampling/recycling module, but with the halve of the effects in post chain I can speed up to 64!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Samples per buffer.

In synthesis, No guitar Rig, and make your own Effects Devices in Live + of course, no internal audio card...

We are talkin live of course, in studio there is another process.


BTW Yes RME has better latency management, in general better HW converters, but are also less sturdy for live performances and the software side, well it is RME...

MOTU is with Mac from the beginning of Mac...

no VSTs... so I guess you don't advise me to use Massive, Absynth, and FM8 alongside my guitar playing? haha. gonna have to do some experimenting with that...I was leaning towards a MOTU from the beginning, and I still am. I've heard nothing but good things about them for live use.

I work with about 20ms latency, it's not really noticeable to a listener it's just a case of getting used to that ever-so-slight delay when you're hitting the strings.

What I realised is that Guitar Rig is just too hungry for live use, assuming you have other stuff going on in your set (beats, synths and the like). If you're using Live as a massive multi-effects rack and little else, you can get away with it but otherwise I'd say the first step is to move away from Guitar Rig.

I'd put something like a line6 pod to do the GR job, and that'll take away processor load allowing you to run a tighter latency without getting clicks and pops. My current method is to go into my interface clean (Saffire 6 USB), then take a mono out to the pod, then from the pod to either an amp or a seperate channel on the PA. So channels 1 + 2 are the stereo Ableton Live tracks, and channel 3 is just guitar (but still routed through the Live effects so delays, beat repeat etc are still in time with what's coming out of 1 + 2.). Doing it this way gives you or the sound guy more options for mixing the guitar in with the other stuff too.

crafty setup. i might have to give something like that a try.

Thank you both

[ras3248]

...it's just a case of getting used to that ever-so-slight delay when you're hitting the strings...

We should think ourselves lucky we don't play the pipe organ. I used to know a guy who played organ in a church and he routinely had to play about a quarter of a second in front of the the music he was hearing. I think it's called musicianship.

You're telling me...every time I pick up my guitar I feel lucky I don't play pipe organ.

if it's just a multi-fx for guitar...what do you need Live for...?
Guitarig standalone ftw...

I've been playing "guitar standalone ftw" for my entire musical lifespan. I love it, I still do it everyday, it's the best thing there is, but I use Ableton because I want to integrate my guitar playing into electronic music ventures, somewhat of a side project I guess.