the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Discuss anything related to audio or music production.
3rdFloorSound
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 3rdFloorSound » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:47 pm

9V:
It is just because italians invented modern music in 1500. You cannot understand the difference, maybe too difficult for most of you, i don't know... You call "syllogism" something so simple here in italy. You tend to call "music" everything you hear with your ears.
No, it has nothing to do with who invented what, and incidentally, to say that it's too difficult for the rest of us says much more about you than anyone else.
I'm inclined to think you're purposely misunderstanding what people are saying here. No one claimed music is everything you hear with your ears. The reverse, actually. Also, that you can take anything you hear and use it to make music.
THIS is what I meant when I said it was a syllogism:
All X is a subgroup of Y, and all Y is a subgroup of Z, therefor all X is a subgroup of Z.
X = music, Y = sound, and Z = things that can be recorded. So from the smallest group to the largest we have X < Y < Z.
All music(X) is a type of sound(Y) and all sound can be recorded(Z) in some way.
When it comes to written music it would look like this:
Sheet music & midi(X) are types of languages(Y), which are types of codes(Z) used to communicate.

The problem seems to be that these two formulas have been intermingled in this thread so as to say that
Sheet music(X) is a type of sound(Y) which is a type of code(Z). Add in the supposed stipulation that it isn't music unless it's performed in real time and the result is this thread.

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:49 pm

9V wrote:Again, the criterium of manipulation is irrelivant. Once the audiofile has been recorded, the manipulation was already done, that is, playing the music, the manipulation of the instruments.

it is not irrelivant. It is the most important element to define MUSIC. What you call "listen to my music" in an audio sequencer it is the "recorded sound" of your music. But your music is not THAT SOUND. I understand this kinf of arguments could sound complex or difficult to people who are not used to think "philosophically" about music (performers or home music makers). But things like these must be known if you try to be a musician.
When it is music, I dont have to listen to the audio file in the sequencer, to know that the file represents the musical code AND the sound. I dont have to cause I know.

My music is not THAT SOUND, no, my music is the musical code WITH the sound.

And when you listen, the musical code heard THROUGH the sound. (door middel van in dutch)

I dont have to understand any of these things if I want to try to be a musician, so again, you talk nonsense.

I can just take my guitar and......

Im gonna watch the comments on the yesterday football matches if you dont mind, so if I react on your possible reaction, that will be tommorrow.

9V
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:56 pm

drewbixcube wrote: Universal rules of grammar... lol. Grammar is not universal.
You are wrong. Grammar is universal, it is in our brain, because we are humans. See Noam Chomsky studies. It has nothing to do with local traditions.

drewbixcube wrote:Can music exist without sheet music or MIDI?
only when played in real time. Otherwise it is sound. This is the difference, in a sequencer, between MIDI tracks (music) and AUDIO tracks (sound).
Last edited by 9V on Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stringtapper
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:57 pm

H20nly wrote:Image

Omg G I almost blew fried rice out my nose!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Unsound Designer

crumhorn
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crumhorn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:57 pm

your argument is purely one of semantics. it is not philosophical, nor is it technical - as you claimed earlier when you said it was not philosophical.

The distinction you make between code and sound is perfectly valid; your campaign to redefine the word music as commonly used in the English language is not.

A discussion about the relationship between the code and the audio or about the nature of symbol systems in general and the relationships between configuration and information or between representation and instantiation could have be en interesting. arguing over semantics is not interesting.

I'm out...
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

crumhorn
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crumhorn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:59 pm

rote fahne wrote:
crumhorn wrote:
rote fahne wrote: Ma sta girando il culo.
Google Translate = "But her ass is turning"?

:? :? :? :? :?
your ass.
still :? :? :? :? :?, but nevermind
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:04 pm

crumhorn wrote:still :? :? :? :? :?, but nevermind
Hij draait zijn kont they say in dutch, that is, turning around his ass, that means, he is avoiding the clue of the discussion.

And yes, it is a semantical discussion.

9V
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:04 pm

crumhorn wrote:your argument is purely one of semantics. it is not philosophical, nor is it technical - as you claimed earlier when you said it was not philosophical.
You are only a little bit confused. The distinction between audio (sound) and midi (music) is technical. The argument about "what is music and why sound is not music" is philosophical.

9V
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:05 pm

by the way: the sentence "sta girando il culo" in italian does not exist. It means nothing.

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:06 pm

9V wrote:by the way: the sentence "sta girando il culo" in italian does not exist. It means nothing.
I just made it up.

When Cruijff went to Barcelone the phrase: en un momento dado, did not exist.

Today it is accepted language there.

I dont pretend to be Cruijff, but I just want to say that language is something flexible.

But again, a different discussion.

Audio is music with the sound, that is all you have to remember.
Last edited by rote fahne on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

H20nly
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by H20nly » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:08 pm

rote fahne wrote:
9V wrote:by the way: the sentence "sta girando il culo" in italian does not exist. It means nothing.
I just made it up.

well at least you two have something in common.

crumhorn
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crumhorn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:10 pm

9V wrote:by the way: the sentence "sta girando il culo" in italian does not exist. It means nothing.
I know I'm out :) but to maintain you philosophical cred you should say

"sta girando il culo" is not a valid sentence in Italian.

Statements of the form "X does not exist" are nonsensical.
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:10 pm

H20nly wrote:
rote fahne wrote:
9V wrote:by the way: the sentence "sta girando il culo" in italian does not exist. It means nothing.
I just made it up.

well at least you two have something in common.
Except for the agreement about the correctness of the statement that audio is not music, we could have anything in common, dont know.

9V
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:13 pm

you take things personal. This is the wrong way to discuss. Maybe i am hitting a nerve here, i don't know... because many home music makers consider themselves "musician"? And they feel insulted? This is my impression. Music industry of course pretends to "forget" this ABC of music... because of loops, samples, etc. i guess.

drewbixcube
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by drewbixcube » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:13 pm

9V wrote:
drewbixcube wrote: Universal rules of grammar... lol. Grammar is not universal.
You are wrong. Grammar is universal, it is in our brain, because we are humans. See Noam Chomsky studies. It has nothing to do with local traditions.
Ugh...

You completely misunderstand Noam Chomsky then. He's not saying each language follows the same rules, as you are stating music must. Instead, he's saying that some form of grammar exists without being taught.
9V wrote:
drewbixcube wrote:Can music exist without sheet music or MIDI?
only when played in real time. Otherwise it is sound. This is the difference, in a sequencer, between MIDI tracks (music) and AUDIO tracks (sound).
Especially when played in real time, music is sound. That is the whole point of this argument, no? MIDI tracks laid out in a sequencer are not music. Only when you hit the play button do they transform the instruments into music. Again, I like arguing semantics as much as anyone, however your arguments are falling extremely short of the mark if you plan to revolutionize the way we as a society perceive music. Don't base your doctorate thesis on this thinking anytime soon.

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