Motown Trick in Ableton Live?

[Mr. Bit]

Hi,
I want to do the 'Motown Trick' or 'New York Drums Trick' with Ableton Live (8.2.x).

I use a compressor plug-in in a send channel and make a parallel compression of a drumloop, but it doesn't
work correctly, because I have a phasing effect between the channels.

It works better when I use a Live compressor and not a 3rd part plug-in.

Is there a internal delay in Live that can't compensate when I use 3rd part plug-ins?

Thanks for your help!!!

[Angstrom]

surely just make an effect rack on the drum channel itself,
make two parallel chains, one 'dry' (either empty, or with an EQ on),
and one with the compressor on.

[Mr. Bit]

surely just make an effect rack on the drum channel itself,
make two parallel chains, one 'dry' (either empty, or with an EQ on),
and one with the compressor on.

Nice, I give it a try.

Thx,
Mr.Bit

[Mr. Bit]

Ok, that works! No phasing and only one channel in the mix.

But, why it doesn't works with the send channels??? I don't understand it???

I guess it is a bug in Live.

[Mr. Bit]

A littel demo loop:

http://snd.sc/oc4IFx

Have fun!

[H20nly]

The Sends are delayed a little for some technical reason I don't remember. But that's why - the slight delay causes the phasing.

really? how long is the delay?? i'm guessing it must be really low.

[H20nly]

The Sends are delayed a little for some technical reason I don't remember. But that's why - the slight delay causes the phasing.

really? how long is the delay?? i'm guessing it must be really low.

The delay amount really depends on your project, how many effects are being used, your audio interface, cpu usage, etc...

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... ks+delayed

Your results may vary - I personally don't have much of an issue with it with my setup.

huh... ok. i've never noticed it either, but my tracks consist of guitars, vocals, bass, MIDI drums (sometimes those are rendered to audio) so by the time I clean it all up I rarely have more than 10 tracks going so perhaps this is why it's never been an issue.... the combination of organic music vs. all MIDI based and a low track count... i usually start with the MIDI drums and record each piece in afterward so real world compensation

thx. it's definitely good to keep in mind for those head scratching moments when there's a delay with no delay.

[yaddablah]

gawd i wish i understood the first few sentences of this thread.

[Angstrom]

gawd i wish i understood the first few sentences of this thread.

your wish is granted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

[yaddablah]

gawd i wish i understood the first few sentences of this thread.

your wish is granted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

Thanks, dude.

Parallel compression, also known as New York compression,

I like it already...

[Pasha]

gawd i wish i understood the first few sentences of this thread.

your wish is granted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

Wow!

Thanks.

[Spectrumdisco]

Great post will give parallel compression a go tonight

[Mr. Bit]

The Sends are delayed a little for some technical reason I don't remember. But that's why - the slight delay causes the phasing.

really? how long is the delay?? i'm guessing it must be really low.

The delay amount really depends on your project, how many effects are being used, your audio interface, cpu usage, etc...

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... ks+delayed

Your results may vary - I personally don't have much of an issue with it with my setup.

Now, I know what the problem is!

It was the 'Lookahead' parameter of the 'Feed Forward Model' at the Ableton Live compressor.
1ms Lookahead = 1 ms delay of the signal.

I put a 3rd party compressor in the same send as the Live compressor and just deactivate the Live compressor,
but the Lookahead (1ms) is ALWAYS active. No matter of activation/ deactivation of the compressor.

That's way the 3rd party compressor got a delay, too!

I guess it is a bug in the compressor, because if I deactivate a plug-in in a chain it shout not change the sound!

Update:

It is what it is.
There is a delay smaller than 1ms when I use a parallel compresson of a beat with a send compressor.
For transient sound you can hearing it.
It sounds not tight!

So, if you try it out the 'Motown Trick' or 'NY Drum FX' use a effect rack in the same channel.
It is not so flexible as a send fx, but it works.

cu,
Mr. Bit

[theophilus]

you could just put a short delay on the 'dry' channel, something like voxengo sound delay (freeware), which you can specify samples for the delay. Will delay everything a little bit but hopefully you can line them up.

[anybody human]

Not sure about this but I think it came to prominence in disco recordings. I've heard people use the last great Rolling Stones record Tattoo You (which sounds amazing) as a prime example. Same era, a Sound On Sound article says the record was mixed in New York at Electric Ladyland, Hit Factory, and the Power Station.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr04/a ... tracks.htm