[mma] 8.1.1 rendering includes sounds not actually on tracks

[StickPlayer]

I have a project with a number of synths and things. I am trying to render the first minute of it, but it seems the very beginning is including a sound that simply isn't in the track.

This is gonna sound weird, but you know how if you just stop playback, a number of sounds will continue until they peter out? That is, just pressing stop doesn't kill audio from synths and things. It sounds to me like the synth that would have continued playing at the END of the 1 minute segment is somehow being rendered at the very beginning.

There is NO synth playing at the beginning of the actual piece - just some drum loops with fx. No MIDI at all in fact. And if I use normal playback from the top, indeed it sounds as expected. Rendering however has this bit mixed in at the top that ain't there in the track.

What gives, guys? Being unable to render is kind of a showstopper, no?

[Trackdriver]

Are you sure that you haven´t ticked "Render as loop" in the export settings?

[StickPlayer]

Are you sure that you haven´t ticked "Render as loop" in the export settings?

definitely did not. And it isn't rendering as a loop at all. It is simply sticking a sound at the beginning for which there is truly no MIDI data. It is my guess that the sound is the cut-off from the END of the entire 1-minute section.

[Matthias]

Hi StickPlayer,

Does your set contain VST/AU plugins?

Can you perhaps nail it down to a certain track in the set? Maybe it helps to mute all others, render again and hear again if the sound appears. If you can nail it down and it appears to be one of our devices it would be great if you can send me a self contained set directly to [email protected] just containing 'problem'-track.

best wishes,
matthias

[StickPlayer]

Well, I am pretty sure it is not an ableton sound source, although fx on it are.

I have to do SOMETHING so will see if I can nail it down.

[StickPlayer]

So I'd written about a strange thing - I was rendering the first minute of a piece, and the very beginning had what sounded like the tail-off from the END of the piece... and indeed it was.

This is a real bug, and something I noticed going back to at least version 7, but never could get a handle on. Now I know EXACTLY what this is.

To understand it, first - have you ever had oh, say, a synth sound with a lot of decay? If so, you probably have noticed that simply stopping playback doesn't in fact stop the synth decay. Clicking stop twice, to reset to the beginning of the piece, also doesn't stop it. It just plays until it decays.

This is something that 8.1.1 also does. So here's the thing:

My one minute extraction ends where one of these tails is - where the synth would be rolling for another several seconds. If I render WITHOUT normalization, there is no problem. WITH normalization - the tail appears at the BEGINNING of the rendered piece!

Here's what's happening:

When you normalize, in effect Ableton is rolling through the sequence just as if you were playing it - but at the fastest speed possible. That is, it is pushing the numbers through all the gozintas and gozouttas as it needs the REAL numbers to find the maximum volume of the piece being rendered, and then it adjusts all the final output so it hits close to zero (I presume, since we don't get to set the normalization level).

The problem is that because anything with a decay plays, even after reset, when the normalization is done and they reset and roll from the top to get the rendering, anything that would be playing from the END of the section being rendered still is playing - just as if you had reset the playback position at the end of the section. Because the instruments themselves are not reset, you get the additional sound.

This is pretty much a disaster unless your rendered section ends AFTER the complete ending of all sounds that would be sounded, REGARDLESS of the overall track level. In other words, even if you have a master fader to zero by the end of your track, the level of playback will be whatever the BEGINNING of the section has - so the sounds play, because they are rolling from the simulated runthrough of the normalization-level pass.

Guys - this is unacceptable on two fronts:

1. Can't render sections without some serious gymnastics
2. The instruments and ALL sounds should stop anyway when you stop or reset, or at least that should be an option.

Now you know - your thoughts/comments? Can we hear from Ableton please?

[longjohns]

that's interesting.

hope to find a minute to test it out

[Soundscapemusic]

+1 on this for sure.

[TobiasHahn]

Hi StickPlayer,

I have merged your two threads. Please do not create a new thread when following up on an old one. This makes it hard for us trying to help you resolve your issue.

Thank you!
Tobias

[StickPlayer]

Thanks for the merge - I even looked for the thread and didn't find it!

[Matthias]

Hi StickPlayer,

did you have set the button 'Render as Loop' in the dialog 'Export Audio/Video' ?

If so, the behavior is exactly as you described. If you turn of that switch, sounds from previous passes should not be included at start of rendering. This is what the infotext say about:

"If this option is activated, Live will create a sample that can be used as a loop. This is ideal when rendering Live Sets that contain effects with `tails,' such as delays. When rendering with these types effects included in the output, Render as Loop will wrap the end of the effect into the beginning of the rendered sample, preventing an abrupt cutoff."

So I'd think you stumbled accross a feature.

best wishes,
matthias

[StickPlayer]

Hi StickPlayer,

did you have set the button 'Render as Loop' in the dialog 'Export Audio/Video' ?

If so, the behavior is exactly as you described. If you turn of that switch, sounds from previous passes should not be included at start of rendering. This is what the infotext say about:

"If this option is activated, Live will create a sample that can be used as a loop. This is ideal when rendering Live Sets that contain effects with `tails,' such as delays. When rendering with these types effects included in the output, Render as Loop will wrap the end of the effect into the beginning of the rendered sample, preventing an abrupt cutoff."


matthias

Well, no. I didn't. And the section would be useless as a loop as the beginning has stuff it shouldn't have. I suspect you've misunderstood what I wrote, frankly.

Just try EXACTLY what I wrote and you will see this is no feature - it is a problem.

[Matthias]

Hi StickPlayer,

If you haven't 'Render as Loop' enabled it sounds like a bug. Unfortunately I still was not able to reproduce it.

I have build a small midi clip in arranger with a single short note inside NOT starting at the beginning so I could hear if there are artefacts from the normalization path. Afterwards I placed different instruments with long release tails into that track and rendered only that clip. I also played around with hold pedal automation. In this szenario all instruments were fully reseted after the normalization path.

I tried with Operator, Sampler, Analog, Electric, Tension and a decent VST instrument.

Can you perhaps tell me what instruments you've used that do not get reseted? If you have a small szenarion easy to reproduce you could also send me a small set directly to [email protected] . This would be really a great help.

best wishes,
matthias

[scissorkicks]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I'm getting exactly the same problem in 8.2.2 - I've had it on two separate Macbook Pros. It's driving me nuts. I have to leave like 30 seconds empty at the start so I can chop the reverb/delay tails off. Behaves the same whether Render As Loop is on or off. Really, really annoying.