the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[9V]

for you (listener) an audio file of a dog barking is "noise", while an audio file of a melody is "music". For me (composer) neither the bark (noise) nor the melody sound (sound) are "music". Because it is something related to acoustic science and sound engineering, not to music rules. MIDI is music, audio is just sound: the fact audio reproduces "music" (as percieved by the listener and in common sense) does not mean it is music. Infact it isn't.

[H20nly]

why are you guys still trying to change his mind?

has anyone agreed with him yet on this topic?

for him audio = waveform. that's all he perceives it as, as though the 2 words are wholly interchangeable.

he really likes MIDI

/POV

[9V]

yes: in a sequencer AUDIO means "waveform", MIDI means "instructions". As I said before, i am talking about making music in a sequencer. I said it is a technical matter, not philosphical. That is why stringtapper is out of topic, IMO.

[stringtapper]

i am talking of tonal music, actually. Because 100% of musicians use tonal rules. The rest i don't know, and has nothing to do with composing music in a sequencer.

Absolutely 100% WRONG.

100% of music is NOT tonal.

And I can compose plenty of non-tonal music in a sequencer, so your assertion that it has nothing to do with composing music in a sequencer is patently FALSE.

You can keep trying, but simply ignoring entire genres and styles of music gets you absolutely NOWHERE in the technical argument of whether musical parameters that cannot be edited with MIDI (timbre) are used in musical practice.

When you say tonal you mean diatonic?

I mean tonal harmony based on a diatonic scale that uses functional harmony. There is music that is not considered "tonal" by most people who seriously study music (the music of Schoenberg, Debussy, Stravinsky, etc.) but still works in a tempered system and can be played on traditional instruments and, yes, edited in MIDI. I think that 9V is lumping this kind of music in with "tonal" music. But there is music, some of it the same as from the composers above, that uses the musical parameter of timbre alongside the traditional parameters of pitch, duration, and dynamics (what 9V calls "the code"). 9V does not acknowledge that this music is in fact "music" although some of the greatest musical minds of the last century would wholeheartedly disagree with him.

[rote fahne]

for you (listener) an audio file of a dog barking is "noise", while an audio file of a melody is "music". For me (composer) neither the bark (noise) nor the melody sound (sound) are "music". Because it is something related to acoustic science and sound engineering, not to music rules. MIDI is music, audio is just sound: the fact audio reproduces "music" (as percieved by the listener and in common sense) does not mean it is music. Infact it isn't.

Nah, noise is something else then the barking of a dog. One thing.

An audio file, as I have tried to point out to you many times before, does not only contain acoustical and sound engineering parameters, it also contains the musical parameters, of course, in case we deal with what we call music.

The fact that this is true, is already proven by engineers that made it possible to time warp audio files, to slice and change the rhythm, to extract pitches etc etc.

The world has always been a sphere, even before Galileo Galilei said so.

[stringtapper]

yes: in a sequencer AUDIO means "waveform", MIDI means "instructions". As I said before, i am talking about making music in a sequencer. I said it is a technical matter, not philosphical. That is why stringtapper is out of topic, IMO.

But I have already given you a technical aspect that you keep ignoring. The technical, musical parameter of timbre, that cannot be edited with MIDI. This is a technical argument, not a philosophical one.

[H20nly]

yes: in a sequencer AUDIO means "waveform", MIDI means "instructions". As I said before, i am talking about making music in a sequencer. I said it is a technical matter, not philosphical. That is why stringtapper is out of topic, IMO.

look i could sit here and type a bunch of stuff about how a waveform is a visual representation of a file... and a file is a set of instructions for your computer to interpret, so in the end they're just like saying the same thing in French and Spanish - two languages, but why would i want to debate with you?

you won't change your mind.

i see how you are. i'm just surprised that these other chaps are actually still entertaining the thought of having a discussion with you on this.

[9V]

An audio file, as I have tried to point out to you many times before, does not only contain acoustical and sound engineering parameters, it also contains the musical parameters, of course, in case we deal with what we call music. The fact that this is true, is already proven by engineers that made it possible to time warp audio files, to slice and change the rhythm, to extract pitches etc etc. The world has always been a sphere, even before Galileo Galilei said so.

In my opinion you are a little bit confused, not beiing a musician, but only a listener. The fact an audio file cannot be warped from major to minor key or changed in its tempo is just the evidence audio is not music.

[9V]

yes: in a sequencer AUDIO means "waveform", MIDI means "instructions". As I said before, i am talking about making music in a sequencer. I said it is a technical matter, not philosphical. That is why stringtapper is out of topic, IMO.

But I have already given you a technical aspect that you keep ignoring. The technical, musical parameter of timbre, that cannot be edited with MIDI. This is a technical argument, not a philosophical one.

but this is an exception, not the rule. As in popper epistemology, it proves i am right.

[rote fahne]

An audio file, as I have tried to point out to you many times before, does not only contain acoustical and sound engineering parameters, it also contains the musical parameters, of course, in case we deal with what we call music. The fact that this is true, is already proven by engineers that made it possible to time warp audio files, to slice and change the rhythm, to extract pitches etc etc. The world has always been a sphere, even before Galileo Galilei said so.

In my opinion you are a little bit confused, not beiing a musician, but only a listener. The fact an audio file cannot be warped from major to minor key or changed in its tempo is just the evidence audio is not music.

My only confusion is you. LOL.

I only wanted to demonstrate that an audio file CAN contain musical parameters. Then you come up with something that is not yet possible to make me believe that I am wrong.

If the audiofile is the recording of a musical event, then it contains all the musical parameters of that musical event.

And if not, tell me where they are gone.

About the future technical possibilities to extract all the pitches, Fourier allready mathematically proven that this is possible.

[rote fahne]

In my opinion you are a little bit confused, not beiing a musician, but only a listener.

Invalidating, offensive.

The one that is confused is you, and I dont consider you a musician before you have put up some music. Until then I consider you a liar.

[stringtapper]

yes: in a sequencer AUDIO means "waveform", MIDI means "instructions". As I said before, i am talking about making music in a sequencer. I said it is a technical matter, not philosphical. That is why stringtapper is out of topic, IMO.

But I have already given you a technical aspect that you keep ignoring. The technical, musical parameter of timbre, that cannot be edited with MIDI. This is a technical argument, not a philosophical one.

but this is an exception, not the rule. As in popper epistemology, it proves i am right.

You ignoring complete genres and styles does not prove anything except that you probably don't know that music, or at least you don't value it. It does not prove anything about the technical natures of sound and music.

[rote fahne]

why are you guys still trying to change his mind?

Yeh, the fool that lowers you to his level, and then beats you with experience.

[9V]

why offensive? It is just a matter of different fields. You keep talking about "engineers", "sound technology" etc. I just ask you: can you warp an audio file song from major to minor key? This is a musical question. The fact you can edit an audio file, changing pitch, volume etc. is not at all musical. It is acoustic.

[rote fahne]

Encyclopedia Dramatica, would anybody out there like to write a new entrance. I am non native english, so I wont do.