NI Forums...

[macmurphy]

and to think this thread started off as a critique of the n.i. forums

[Silverfish]

Yeah, sorry for the thread jack...

I think I'll try a new thread to see what's what with the Kore updates, before I go installing anything. To those of you who have made suggestions, thank you. I will look into them.

[H20nly]

how many OS revisions is 10+ year old product supposed to last through?

if Kore (or any piece of software) works within the specs and minimum requirements as advertised and then,(much) later, your new OS renders it unusable, whose fault is that? really.

Dear Ford,

Why does the carburetor from my 81 Mustang not work with my 2006 Mustang?

Thanks,
High Hopes X0X0

Dear High Hopes,

Carburetors have been replaced by fuel injection and backwards compatibility is not our company's goal.

Sincerely,
Ford

Dear High Hopes,

Computers are constantly changing. We know this because we excel at changing them. Backwards compatibility is not our company's goal. Will that be cash or charge?

Sincerely,
Apple

[glitchrock-buddha]

Ditto Spektral Delay and Vokator, whose functionality is mimicked and exceeded by various Reaktor ensembles.

Show me one Reaktor ensemble that even comes close.

There are too many excellent Reaktor ensembles to mention them all. As for Spektral Delay, take a look at Prism FX ensemble and The Mouth for Vokator.

B4 is sample based. It was not primarily modeling based. Vintage Organs is a much more powerful successor to B4: http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... ostcount=5

Where on Earth are you getting your information from?

Check the link I posted where NI dev points out that B4 is not primarily modeling based.

NI B4 did not use samples.

Nope. B4 used samples for the tonewheels.

It shares nothing in common with Vintage Organs except the fact that they both sound like Organs. It was not repackaged in any way. Vintage Organs was recorded from Organs. B4 was completely synthesis.

Where on Earth are YOU getting your info from?

Here, I'll just paste the text from that link I posted since you didn't bother reading it:
"I just wanted to point out that B4 and Vintage Organs are technically much closer than many of you might think, because both draw on individual tonewheel samples to authentically simulate the sound. B4 was not primarily modelling-based, and neither is Vintage Organs based on conventional multi-samples."

Sorry, I didn't check the link you're right. That has me scratching my head. Have you ever isntalled B4 II? It's not very big, certainly not big enough for a sample set I wouldn't think. Vintage Organs on the other hand is much bigger as is usually the case with a sample-based instrument. That quote was the first time I'd ever heard that. NI's own product descriptions have always been about it being physically modeled and all reviews and write-ups have always described it as a physical modeling organ as well (using synthesis). That's very weird to me that he said that. Seriously the product is very small, I don't see how it's using samples.

[glitchrock-buddha]

Kore buttHZ



Just so long as we're honest about what's really bothering you, bitch away.
Btw - you might want to make sure you 'understand correctly'. Kore will still work with the NI suite of instruments, they just won't be updated in the koresound format. ergo the updated instruments will be treated like any other 3rd party VST.
.

You're right except for the last part. I wish that part were true. Kore has always used it's own versions of the NI plug-ins so it really doesn't matter what happens to the external ones. Kore won't stop working with Absynth etc. because it has it's own internal one anyways. You're right as you point that the problem is in the new formats introduced. This means that any presets created with the external versions won't load in Kore because they are no longer koresounds. Where you are wrong is that Kore will not see them like any other 3rd party VST. Kore does not see the external NI plug-ins at all, at least not the ones that it has equivalents for in it's internal versions. So there is no way to load these updated ones in Kore at all (unless you load the Audio Units on a mac), as Kore will only load it's internal ones. I wish it would see the plug-ins as it sees other third party ones, that would be great. And apparently NI are looking into being able to disable the internal plug-ins in Kore, thus allowing the new versions to load up. It still wouldn't load the new formats, but at least you could load the plug-in itself and save the presets as koresounds.

[pencilrocket]

And as mentioned before, discontinuing Kore was necessary for NI to move forward:
"Excluding Kore from the future roadmap gives the developers more time for all the other products, so in that sense it makes further discontinuations less likely in the first place.

We called that fail. They just discontinued Kore because they faild to pull good revenue out of it. Simple.

[Machinesworking]

how many OS revisions is 10+ year old product supposed to last through?

i've stated my case simply enough, but here's a recap:

NI have, and will probably always have, a subscription model for doing business with them as a customer.
Other companies I own products by (see previous list) have not required upgrades as often or at all. Komplete while a great buy at first has become the single most expensive piece of software on my computer. Nothing is changing there, Komplete will roll out every year or so and cost $225-275 to upgrade to, new stuff will be fun, but falling off that upgrade path can and will end you up with software that simply does not work.

Fuck it here's a breakdown.
I bought Zebra 1 in 2003 ($70) and it works right now, the updates to keep it working were free. The upgrade to Zebra 2 was $25.

I bought Absynth $299 in 2003, upgraded to Komplete $475, got Komplete Care 05 $250 Komplete Care 06 $225 Komplete 6 $199.
I'm missing something here I'm sure.
All that was as thrifty as possible, It's still a ridiculous amount of money to me.
$1500+ VS $90

A more fair comparison is Ohm Force's All All suite of every plug in they make.
I've spent about $400 on their software and they update it for every new OS and DAW.

I still really like some NI gear, I own Kore, Komplete and Rig Kontrol 3. I use Kore and Rig Kontrol as live audio cards and that's not changing anytime soon.
I'm just saying I'm not interested in their subscription service anymore, I think I've paid them enough to use their software. I understand that they scramble to add new content and give you bang for your buck, but honestly new factory libraries and presets have never been my thing anyway, it's ergonomically designed software that I like and they aren't the only ones producing that. I'm going to let their stuff go for a while and invest in smaller more dedicated to their user base companies.
Zebra 1 and 2 still work, while many items in NI's catalog require you to upgrade to the latest version to work, and like people have pointed out, the recent discontinuation of Kore has wrought havoc on updating plug ins. I fucked the dog with Reaktor and now I have to load every Kore preset with Reaktor by hand...

I'm already thinking of sleeping around: Look at the granular synthesis engine video.
http://www.motu.com/products/software/machfive

[macmurphy]

hmm. i've never had to upgrade anything by n.i. to make it work

[3dot...]

hmm. i've never had to upgrade anything by n.i. to make it work

+1

and MW..
I believe that I've read somewhere that..
the organ pack in Kontakt is built around the B4 sampled wavs
in any case it sounds good to me..

[pencilrocket]

how many OS revisions is 10+ year old product supposed to last through?

i've stated my case simply enough, but here's a recap:

NI have, and will probably always have, a subscription model for doing business with them as a customer.
Other companies I own products by (see previous list) have not required upgrades as often or at all. Komplete while a great buy at first has become the single most expensive piece of software on my computer. Nothing is changing there, Komplete will roll out every year or so and cost $225-275 to upgrade to, new stuff will be fun, but falling off that upgrade path can and will end you up with software that simply does not work.

Fuck it here's a breakdown.
I bought Zebra 1 in 2003 ($70) and it works right now, the updates to keep it working were free. The upgrade to Zebra 2 was $25.

I bought Absynth $299 in 2003, upgraded to Komplete $475, got Komplete Care 05 $250 Komplete Care 06 $225 Komplete 6 $199.
I'm missing something here I'm sure.
All that was as thrifty as possible, It's still a ridiculous amount of money to me.
$1500+ VS $90

A more fair comparison is Ohm Force's All All suite of every plug in they make.
I've spent about $400 on their software and they update it for every new OS and DAW.

I still really like some NI gear, I own Kore, Komplete and Rig Kontrol 3. I use Kore and Rig Kontrol as live audio cards and that's not changing anytime soon.
I'm just saying I'm not interested in their subscription service anymore, I think I've paid them enough to use their software. I understand that they scramble to add new content and give you bang for your buck, but honestly new factory libraries and presets have never been my thing anyway, it's ergonomically designed software that I like and they aren't the only ones producing that. I'm going to let their stuff go for a while and invest in smaller more dedicated to their user base companies.
Zebra 1 and 2 still work, while many items in NI's catalog require you to upgrade to the latest version to work, and like people have pointed out, the recent discontinuation of Kore has wrought havoc on updating plug ins. I fucked the dog with Reaktor and now I have to load every Kore preset with Reaktor by hand...

I'm already thinking of sleeping around: Look at the granular synthesis engine video.
http://www.motu.com/products/software/machfive

Indeed. Fair comment. Most of their products are not worth paying that fee. There, as you described, are far fairer ,more reasonable and also better products in the market for most of the products' caterogies. Their synths' sound itself don't necessarily sounds good even though they charge that 'fee'. No reason to stop considering other greater synths whose company is doing fair business that offers serious developing and support w/o unfair subscription fee (which is just for the source of dumb advertising cost everywhere on the youtube and etc, not necessarily for the development of their 'fabulous' products.)

[lethal_pizzle]

I agree 100% that NI pulled the plug because Kore wasn't providing a revenue stream. They are, after all, a business. Their communication needs an overhaul too I'd say, after the way they handled getting rid of the deadwood.

I'm also aware of NI's business model. With the Maschine crossgrade, I saved close to 90% on Komplete. I know I'll have to think about upgrades next year when they release new bundles. If they're worth it, they'll get my money. If not, they won't.

Even if I don't, I've got 64bit versions of the plugs. I'll be able to use them for years to come.

[Rationalizer]

Even if I don't, I've got 64bit versions of the plugs. I'll be able to use them for years to come.

Yeah, if you don't update your OS.

[Machinesworking]

hmm. i've never had to upgrade anything by n.i. to make it work

+1

and MW..
I believe that I've read somewhere that..
the organ pack in Kontakt is built around the B4 sampled wavs
in any case it sounds good to me..

That pack comes with Komplete 7, which I would have to pay to get, but it has all this new content! including a great substitute for the soon to be useless on OSX and Live 64 bit B4II. Exactly what I was talking about, that to stay current with NI you pay hundreds every year plus a few months maybe. Unlike any of my other software except Live when they had an aggressive turn around. <-- to be fair though the upgrade price was cheap then.

Also Reaktor was a total piece of shit on Macs for years until roughly v4.17.
Also Intel Macs, also Battery in Live was an upgrade fix. Guitar Rig, now that's a HOOT! GR4 fucked up program change messages from Live, you have to "prime" the Bank by selecting it manually at the beginning of every Live Set. Well apparently they fixed it in an update, but the update kills Kores ability to read presets with Guitar Rig 4 in them, party! Wooh fucking Hoo!

Seriously guys, I was you about 3 years ago, I would defend NI against any perceived threat even if the person isn't basing their argument off of some irrational hatred but simply a dislike for a noticeable trend in their business model. I simply am tired of paying to be current, especially to be current with replacements for discontinued software etc. A lot of you don't mind that because NI offer a lot for your $200-299 upgrade, but again I don't need more content, just solid stable product that doesn't require $200+ from me every year or so, every other plug in I own fits this bill.

[Press Enter]

hmm. i've never had to upgrade anything by n.i. to make it work

+1

+2

I guess MW is sore, well besides the obvious Kore buttHZ, because he's been throwing full-price money at NI any chance he got.

Anyone remember when they simply gave away absynth/massive/fm8 licenses if you owned two already ? the regular 50% discounts ? the regular (at the time) 99$ sales ? the edu discounts ? that were easy to buy even if you weren't a student ? the dirt cheap crossgrades to komplete ?

Sorry, but you're just a simple peon if you think it's a subscription based company and imo you deserve to be fleeced, if you were indeed as fleeced as you feel. I reccommend less impulsive purchasing habits in the future.

I made a PROFIT selling my used absynth/massive/fm8 licenses when I crossgraded to Komplete and had no need for duplicates. I crossgraded from an edu reaktor license (I was a genuine student, but the 3rd party retailers never checked. anyone can buy them.) to a full, commercial Komplete license. AND they don't swallow up the license you crossgrade from. You can keep it.


So for the last 5 yrs, thereabouts, it has cost me a grand total of roughly $400 to own and use absynth/massive/fm8/reaktor and subsequently Komplete. So your whinging doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.

Your problem is about Kore. Maybe you have a point there. Maybe not. but when you start bleeting on about 'subscription' fees, and 'discontinued' products that still work, you fail. and you fail hard because it's transparent.

Kore buttHZ



Just so long as we're honest about what's really bothering you, bitch away.
Btw - you might want to make sure you 'understand correctly'. Kore will still work with the NI suite of instruments, they just won't be updated in the koresound format. ergo the updated instruments will be treated like any other 3rd party VST.
.

You're right except for the last part. I wish that part were true. Kore has always used it's own versions of the NI plug-ins so it really doesn't matter what happens to the external ones. Kore won't stop working with Absynth etc. because it has it's own internal one anyways. You're right as you point that the problem is in the new formats introduced. This means that any presets created with the external versions won't load in Kore because they are no longer koresounds. Where you are wrong is that Kore will not see them like any other 3rd party VST. Kore does not see the external NI plug-ins at all, at least not the ones that it has equivalents for in it's internal versions. So there is no way to load these updated ones in Kore at all (unless you load the Audio Units on a mac), as Kore will only load it's internal ones. I wish it would see the plug-ins as it sees other third party ones, that would be great. And apparently NI are looking into being able to disable the internal plug-ins in Kore, thus allowing the new versions to load up. It still wouldn't load the new formats, but at least you could load the plug-in itself and save the presets as koresounds.

First of all, are you talking from experience ?
I read alot of dissent from people who haven't tried it.
the only new formats introducts are preset formats, not plugin formats. Just to be perfectly clear. Your post is a little ambiguous.
So you're saying Kore won't work with (load) the existing NI synths - AT ALL ?
At any rate, you concede that NI are going to make it possible to see NI synths as 3rd party instruments, if it's not possible already. Pointless post really. The synths still work in kore (internally and soon externally, if not already). It's the new preset format that's not, and won't be, recognised. Effectively exactly like I said.

It's not very big, certainly not big enough for a sample set I wouldn't think. Vintage Organs on the other hand is much bigger as is usually the case with a sample-based instrument.

Single cycle wavs.
are small.
very small.

[glitchrock-buddha]

hmm. i've never had to upgrade anything by n.i. to make it work

+1

+2

I guess MW is sore, well besides the obvious Kore buttHZ, because he's been throwing full-price money at NI any chance he got.

Anyone remember when they simply gave away absynth/massive/fm8 licenses if you owned two already ? the regular 50% discounts ? the regular (at the time) 99$ sales ? the edu discounts ? that were easy to buy even if you weren't a student ? the dirt cheap crossgrades to komplete ?

Sorry, but you're just a simple peon if you think it's a subscription based company and imo you deserve to be fleeced, if you were indeed as fleeced as you feel. I reccommend less impulsive purchasing habits in the future.

I made a PROFIT selling my used absynth/massive/fm8 licenses when I crossgraded to Komplete and had no need for duplicates. I crossgraded from an edu reaktor license (I was a genuine student, but the 3rd party retailers never checked. anyone can buy them.) to a full, commercial Komplete license. AND they don't swallow up the license you crossgrade from. You can keep it.


So for the last 5 yrs, thereabouts, it has cost me a grand total of roughly $400 to own and use absynth/massive/fm8/reaktor and subsequently Komplete. So your whinging doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.

Your problem is about Kore. Maybe you have a point there. Maybe not. but when you start bleeting on about 'subscription' fees, and 'discontinued' products that still work, you fail. and you fail hard because it's transparent.

Kore buttHZ



Just so long as we're honest about what's really bothering you, bitch away.
Btw - you might want to make sure you 'understand correctly'. Kore will still work with the NI suite of instruments, they just won't be updated in the koresound format. ergo the updated instruments will be treated like any other 3rd party VST.
.

You're right except for the last part. I wish that part were true. Kore has always used it's own versions of the NI plug-ins so it really doesn't matter what happens to the external ones. Kore won't stop working with Absynth etc. because it has it's own internal one anyways. You're right as you point that the problem is in the new formats introduced. This means that any presets created with the external versions won't load in Kore because they are no longer koresounds. Where you are wrong is that Kore will not see them like any other 3rd party VST. Kore does not see the external NI plug-ins at all, at least not the ones that it has equivalents for in it's internal versions. So there is no way to load these updated ones in Kore at all (unless you load the Audio Units on a mac), as Kore will only load it's internal ones. I wish it would see the plug-ins as it sees other third party ones, that would be great. And apparently NI are looking into being able to disable the internal plug-ins in Kore, thus allowing the new versions to load up. It still wouldn't load the new formats, but at least you could load the plug-in itself and save the presets as koresounds.

First of all, are you talking from experience ?
I read alot of dissent from people who haven't tried it.
the only new formats introducts are preset formats, not plugin formats. Just to be perfectly clear. Your post is a little ambiguous.
So you're saying Kore won't work with (load) the existing NI synths - AT ALL ?
At any rate, you concede that NI are going to make it possible to see NI synths as 3rd party instruments, if it's not possible already. Pointless post really. The synths still work in kore (internally and soon externally, if not already). It's the new preset format that's not, and won't be, recognised. Effectively exactly like I said.

Sheesh man, take it easy, I'm not on a side here. I'm not thrilled that Kore was discontinued but I'm not anti NI at all. I'm quite happy with their stuff. And obviously I'm talking about preset formats, that's pretty clear: "You're right as you point that the problem is in the new formats introduced. This means that any presets created with the external versions won't load in Kore because they are no longer koresounds."

Pointless post? I was just pointing out where you were right about Kore and where you were wrong. Yes I'm speaking from experience, I'm a long time Kore user. You said Kore will see NI synths as third party plug-ins and this is simply not correct. And yes, I am saying they can not see that at all. This is because Kore ignores Absynth, Massive, FM8 and the others in your plug-in folder and loads versions in it's own folder. You can't get them into Kore. Not at all effectively what you said. People are mad because any presets supplied for Komplete in the new format can not be used by the version of these synths in Kore. You know those hundreds of new sounds for Absynth, FM8 and Massive in Komplete? Can't open them in Kore because it's using the old version. Not only can Kore not open them directly, but it can't even load a version of the plug-in that can load them itself. Just not possible. And if you open one of these synths in a DAW and create a preset? You can't load that in the version you open in Kore. I did say that they said they were "looking into" disabling the internal VSTs, but is far from a certainty. It's not a promised feature at all, or even on the official roadmap, just something an NI person mentioned.

You seem to think that I am "dissenting" and that I "concede" that NI may find a solution. I actually am not that upset by the situation. I know that Kore will continue to work for for a very long time and I'm not too worried about the presets. But I understand why some people are a little miffed. I do wish Kore could see the external versions but that is for a different reason. I've always hated that I can't use Novation automap for NI instruments in Kore (since it only uses it's internal versions). If it were to be able to use the external ones, then I'd be able to use automap for Massive etc. I'd like that. But I'm not holding my breath.