A little help with my PERFORMANCE LOOP STATION equipment.

[Pawelx6x]

First of all. I`d like to say Hi to all the ableton forum users. I`m glad i've finally joined the community. I Look forward to exchange with our knowledge and expierience with with all of u, users.

Well, let`s get down to busines, shall we ?


What is my loop station?

Basically it is just a station where:
an In signal [ audio or midi ],
goes to the Mac where it's being equalised [and all this crazy ableton magic stuff bein' made ]
and as the riff [melody, or a vocal] is being played it comes out through the speakers.
Everything on the air.

Basically my idea is a paraphrasis of this kind of an idea:
DUB FX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhBoR_tgXCI
...but with the help of a computer software and some extra instruments.

Once one intruments' loop is bein created i switch to another instrument or creating another loop on top of the previous one.

here's the scheme of the gear i`m going to work on.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


I`m aware of the certain equipment issues, but there's also going to be a lot of problems with maintaining the high quality of the sound without the unexpected latency, which would compromise all the idea. :/




So here are my questions :

Equipment issues :
- how can I create an audio connection for at least 2 audio ins without the brutal CPU loss ? Is there any exterior sound cards [ or anything ] that can increase the signal transfer ?
- Is there any usb-footswitches compatible with Ableton availible ?
- Which Macbook model would U recommend for this task ? [ heh i expect the answer such as " as expensive as u can afford" or something like that.] unfortunatelly, my budget is limited. ..


Software issues :
- Will I be able to control the audio out ? I mean for example: direct one instrument to the subwoofer in 20 % and the 80% to the regular speakers. etc..
- How can i prevent the latency ? I must be able to play for example : A guitar with some abletons' audio effects on it. The guitar should be heard on the speakers and while the 'rec key' is on, the loop is being created. I assume that there are a few ways to decrease the 'ping' .
- is there any ways for setting the auto-quantisation of a midi sequences ?
- is there any extra software that could in some way help with the massive data transfer going around ?


I would be grateful for any kind of help with this one and I promise to share with U with the progress of my work.

thanx for your attention
and Peace !

[yur2die4]

What kind of computer are you using now?

I'd suggest trying this all on your current setup first. It will help you discover methods of accomplishing such tasks, before you invest. Then when you need the tools, you will be much more knowledgable

For foot pedals, an expensive but very versatile one is the Keith McMillen SoftStep. It has lots to play with might be overkill haha. The Behringer FB1010 is a popular choice if you don't mind digging in to edit, needing a midi input, and a power adapter. Line 6 has a shortboard something or other that uses a USB cable and comes with an editor.

I'm wondering if you own any audio mixers. If you have an audio mixer, you can connect several devices, and have them all go into your 1 or 2 channels. An even better mixer with some clever routing would even let you route your audio out back into it.

[Pawelx6x]

What kind of computer are you using now?

Currently i`m working on my PC.
It's not so strong actually.
Latency is massive...
Quality is also cheap.
that is why I`m going to get myself a macbook for this .

I'd suggest trying this all on your current setup first. It will help you discover methods of accomplishing such tasks, before you invest. Then when you need the tools, you will be much more knowledgable

Basically, without better computer there's not much to test...

also

I'd need some directions about the tools i`ll be using ...

For foot pedals, an expensive but very versatile one is the Keith McMillen SoftStep. It has lots to play with might be overkill haha. The Behringer FB1010 is a popular choice if you don't mind digging in to edit, needing a midi input, and a power adapter. Line 6 has a shortboard something or other that uses a USB cable and comes with an editor.

I was thinking about this 3-switch panel .
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/input ... etail.html

...but after deeper consideration I`m afraid it will be just a partial solution.

The role of the feet should be :
-turning on/off the looping sequences on a various instruments.
- activating/disactivating certain tracks.
- arming/disarming certain instruments.

... the point is to give away the most of the "handwork" by using feet to control these actions.

I`m well aware of the fact that there will also be a lot of the ableton's automation options included in this project. But the less automation the better, so the "freestyle factor " is still big.


So I guess i`ll be needing more than just the 3 switches.
Is there any cheaper alternative you could recommend ?
If not i guess my choice will be : http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FCB1010 ... B000CZ0RK6

I'm wondering if you own any audio mixers. If you have an audio mixer, you can connect several devices, and have them all go into your 1 or 2 channels.

hm.. this can work.

U mean something like that?


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Choosing this option would need certain issues to think about :
- how will i switch between the instruments ?
- what about arming/disarming and activating/disactivating on ableton ?
- is this means, that i would have to have all the instruments "turned on" on the mixer's volume ?
- is there any footswitch channel activators availible to the mixer ? is it even needed ?

An even better mixer with some clever routing would even let you route your audio out back into it.

I don't get it.
How many audio outputs are availible in a macbook ?

[yur2die4]

Where is the latency on your computer coming from? I'm curious about the specs (CPU, ram, os, age) of the computer, and what kind of soundcard you are using.

Also what kind of drivers you are using in Audio Preferences. There is a free driver called 'asio4all' that can potentially reduce latency drastically . I'm assuming that you are not using an external soundcard? That is also a possibility. It gives you more connection possibilities, usually cleaner sound, but the downside of course is more money.

I'd reply to the other parts, but I'm feeling that one at a time will help me avoid making assumptions

Edit: okay, I should probably specify why I keep asking about your current computer first.
The truth is, we easily imagine ourselves pulling off these feats of sorts 'if only we had this check list of small details' at our disposal. A lot of times we might overlook things we need, or not realize what we already have. I absolutely encourage the new computer. But if you can get as close to the setup as possible with your old one, you'll be that much more ready to go and practice Now instead of Later. Most of the elements necessary should be roughly doable on your current setup (I mean, as long as your computer isn't completely worthless, which I would guess it is not if it is able to run Live).

[Pawelx6x]

Where is the latency on your computer coming from? I'm curious about the specs (CPU, ram, os, age) of the computer, and what kind of soundcard you are using.

my present pc is rather playable. it handles the ableton basic features. but it creates to much ping at all posible points like : midi in/out and audio in...

the computer is a
Intel core duo cpu 3,00GHz
2,00, GB of RAM

Soundcard is mainboard integrated.
but it is some of the Realtek's HD Audio series.

I've already checked this asio4all driver, but apparently it is not compatible to mine. :/

'd reply to the other parts, but I'm feeling that one at a time will help me avoid making assumptions

Sure, one thing at a time.
so far I didn't get lost in it, so let's keep it that way


So far, I've managed to connect the mixer with the mic and bass, the way so it goes to the PC by one mixer's output.

I`m also studyin' apc40 customisation and automatisation features in ableton. I could use some new tutorials thou...

oh, and i also didnt hesitate much with ordering this behringher's foot panel . It should come next week.

[yur2die4]

Hmmm. I wish I knew how to resolve that support issue :/

The next thing I am curious about is what model of mixer you use? Some have convenient features for muting and routing channels.

How do you have your Ableton Live layout set? A screen shot could help

I'm not sure if you are doing this already, but a master input channel for various instruments can work wonderfully if you have several channels set to 'off', but accepting routing from that channel. Then wha you get is, audio going to Master from that master channel, and then several channels listening to it. Any time you want to record into one of those channel strips, you just trigger a clip for one of those channels. They will not play out any audio until they begin looping. (since their monitoring is set to off)

The MacBook is a tricky situation. The latency should be very low, but you are restrictin yourself to a small headphone jack that would be expensive to replace if anything happened to it. Plus it is more prone to reduced audio quality and hum. Should work for now though

What I would suggest with the footboard is either, using some of the scripts made by users in the forum (has the lovely apc style colored ring around clips) or simply assigning scene up and down to pedals, and the clip launch of each channel. I'm actually not super familiar with the capabilities in that realm

I'd definitely like to know what mixer you use hope this info is helpful haha

[Pawelx6x]

Hmmm. I wish I knew how to resolve that support issue :/

The next thing I am curious about is what model of mixer you use? Some have convenient features for muting and routing channels.

my mixer is definatelly going down.
i need a new one.
i'm using this one :

mc crypt dj-5c

How do you have your Ableton Live layout set? A screen shot could help

i`m still working on it. i haven't figured out which features will be the most useful in my layout etc..

i could use some help with this one also..

I'm not sure if you are doing this already, but a master input channel for various instruments can work wonderfully if you have several channels set to 'off', but accepting routing from that channel. Then wha you get is, audio going to Master from that master channel, and then several channels listening to it. Any time you want to record into one of those channel strips, you just trigger a clip for one of those channels. They will not play out any audio until they begin looping. (since their monitoring is set to off)


I'd definitely like to know what mixer you use hope this info is helpful haha

heh... kinda tricky.
I thought about this option before.
i think that's really reasonable solution and i`ll use this configuration further... but i need a new computer for this one. Working this way on this piece of junk with a latency as such makes it impossible.

but that's exactly how i want it to be connected.

The MacBook is a tricky situation. The latency should be very low, but you are restrictin yourself to a small headphone jack that would be expensive to replace if anything happened to it. Plus it is more prone to reduced audio quality and hum. Should work for now though

uhm.. i know.. it sucks to play bass with a little jack on the route...
is there any safer and more efficient ways of connecting it ?
that is issue troubles me the most...

What I would suggest with the footboard is either, using some of the scripts made by users in the forum (has the lovely apc style colored ring around clips) or simply assigning scene up and down to pedals, and the clip launch of each channel. I'm actually not super familiar with the capabilities in that realm

i`ll look into it.
any keywords ? ;> except fcb1010 .

[yur2die4]

I guess my random thought is, you may want to consider looking into external audio interfaces (probably only 2 input, maybe 4 if you want I for djing). They give you a lot of flexibility for connecting devices (like eliminatin your need for the USB midi adapter if you choose the right interface), and tend to be focused on reducing latency. This would benefit you for your current setup with latency, but also a future setup, as it would give you better quality ins and outs, instead of an 1/8 inch jack.

I was imagining an instrument mixer, but that one could work if you are making it work already haha

I guess, try some practice sessions, keep developing what you have, and if you have any new questions, throw them up on the board. The Ableton set layout will be a pretty important factor. Too many ways to skin cats haha

[Pawelx6x]

will this external audio card have any affect on reducing the latency ?
is better alternative to a "mixer solution" or those two were supposed to work togheter?

how about this one ? http://www.alesis.com/io4
alesis io4

also midi in out included.



but as you said,
it would be a good move to go around the local dj shops and check what they have in stores.

[yur2die4]

I would search on sites for products in your price range, and then look at reviews. Then look at more reviews. Then you will know what you're in for.

The audio interface usually has cleaner in/out and dedicated audio processing. Believe it or not, having that device connected through a standard USB or FireWire cable will have lower latency than your built in card (also less noise from board for some reason). Once you buy a decent one, you are set for most any computer

The mixer option is to allow you to use less inputs on the interface. I have an m-audio fast track pro (they are kind of old now, but mine does what I need it to), which basically has only two inputs. The less inputs and outputs I turn on, the better the latency. I connected my gear to a mixer which feeds into one input on my fast track pro. I was able to select amongst 4 different instruments, all EQed from the mixer, and leveled to a relatively same loudness and loop any of them when I wanted

With a decent audio interface (which I'm sure that any Ableton user that owns one would probably recommend), you are set. You would probably be able to use it on your current computer without any problems and you're using connections that are meant for instruments, mics, and standard audio

[Pawelx6x]

i have updated the sketch in the first post. let me know if it is correct.

another issue:
i`m wondering about placing the bass amp.
is it ok to place it the way that guitar/bass signal goes to the amp first? or is it better for the signal to be amplified after being processed by mac ?

i don't know if external sound card gives any amplification at all .. does it ?

if not then i`ll be doing this in the following way :
For example : bass- > bass amp (connection to mac by the amplifier's effect loop)--> speakers

on the other hand, if the ext.sound card provides such power and clarity of input signals so it can be managable, that means i can put the bass amp. in the line just after digital processing ergo, on the ext.soundcard's output.






My guitar plays pretty well on my bass amp. so i`m going to skip parchausing another guitar amp.

to play on both instruments using one amp i`ll be using bypass switcher : http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-aby.htm



what about the mic ? does it need amplifying before going to external sound card?


i still don't know wheter i need a mixer or not . i think the number of inputs in ext.soundcard is sufficent thou.. so the only reason i`d be buying the mixer is because of it slight ampification of signals.



heh..
feels like we are almost done

[yur2die4]

Simplicity is your best friend.

Start small, and work your way up. I think apple products have a limited number of USB jacks. That is easily resolved.

The bass amp is a good idea, you can definitely capture some characteristic sound off it. It is also reasonable to go direct into the card. I think you have the answers to the questions, you just need to decide how you will approach it all. Even with minimal latency, things can get messy fast, and much practice with timing is helpful.

Have you experimented with your Ableton Live layout? A screen shot might reveal any strengths or weaknesses. You can have channels intended for where each instrument input will be, just kind of test the functionality and assignments of controllers etc