Ideas for your ideal Live controller

ryansupak · Post by **ryansupak** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:04 pm

i think that the tactex material (www.tactex.com) is the most promising means of having a fully "touchable" monitor, but it is still quite expensive.

however, i do agree (kind of echoing my earlier posts) that the truly comprehensive solution is to make the means of display and the means of manipulation one and the same.

rs

kentai · Post by **kentai** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:37 am

What i don’t like about existing hardware controllers is the lack of feedback they give to the user about which parameters they control and, less important (because you can see it on the screen), the state of the software.
My ideal controller would look like this:

16 endless nord lead 3 type knobs in a row with accompanying displays above, like on nm g2.
Alternatively, knobs like e.g. the ones on a doepfer pocket dial, but then there should be a big display, where you can see the names and the values of the 16 assigned parameters at once.

16 velocity sensitive pads with LEDs below, that can be used as switches, triggers and keyboard.

Buttons for switching banks etc.

The Hulk · Post by **The Hulk** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:00 pm

ryansupak wrote:i think that the tactex material (www.tactex.com) is the most promising means of having a fully "touchable" monitor, but it is still quite expensive.

however, i do agree (kind of echoing my earlier posts) that the truly comprehensive solution is to make the means of display and the means of manipulation one and the same.

rs

Wow, I'm so excited about the Tactex controllers i need to create a post about it. In the interim before we get a completely integrated solution this seems like the answer to our control integration problems! Has anyone used the Tactex MTC Express? it just seems so cool and so obvious that solution would exist!

ryansupak · Post by **ryansupak** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:20 pm

hulkster:

i borrowed a tactex mtc express for a while, and i messed with the application-building software for it.

1) one method of using the mtc express is to make it act like a virtual mouse touchpad: the square surface of the mtc express is mapped to the square surface of the monitor, and wherever you touch, the mouse cursor is positioned and clicked.

the tactex mtc express, unlike most of the drawing tablets and touchpads on the market, can detect multiple (i believe up to 4) pressure-points simultaneously. (most drawing pads allow for only one pressure point at a time.)

so, one would think that these 4 pressure points could be used to make 4 simultaneous mouse-clicks on the screen, but this is not the case. as far as i can tell, MAC and WIN operating systems can only register one cursor at a time. (see many posts from me here, dating all the way back to 2001, about a means of getting either MAC or WIN to register more than one fully-functioning cursor simultaneously).

therefore, the limitation here is in the Macintosh and Windows operating systems, not in the control interface (MTC express) and presumably not in the Ableton software (since MIDI controllers can control many different parameters simultaneously). one operating system that does support multiple, simultaneous cursors is Linux. This is hands-down the biggest reason I'd like to see a Linux build of Ableton Live.

2) another method would be to "map" the areas on the mtc express that correspond to the areas on the monitor where controls are displayed, to static MIDI controller assignments.

the problem with this is dealing with dynamic shifts in the positioning of controls on the screen. in Ableton, if you add or take away send tracks, or toggle on and off the display of audio inputs and outputs, the positioning of the audio trigger buttons changes. if you press tab, the real estate formerly occupied by audio trigger buttons becomes occupied by audio send/return faders and horizontal track slots.

this is not to mention the herculean problem of dynamic positioning of effects units.

while it would be possible to hard-code in for almost every contingency that would cause a shift in control orientation, this method would be a clumsy and incomplete workaround at best. furthermore, you are limited to only those controls that the programmers saw fit to add a MIDI assignment for.

method (2) is like writing GOTO statements and linear code for every possible situation, rather than option (1), which is more like writing object-oriented code that is dynamic because it is closely integrated to begin with.

MIDI is becoming outdated and redundant as a means of controlling the new instruments. method (1) is clearly superior. imagine being able to grab the start point of a loop and pull it forward, while simultaneously grabbing two warp points from the middle and adjusting them to create the subtlest shifts in inflection. and while you're doing this, you could be tweaking fx parameters and the tempo with the other fingers, and banging on sample trigger pads with your thumbs.

products like the surface one claim to offer this level of control, but really, such a product is not qualitatively different from a knob box with piano keys. it just isn't closely integrated enough with the software.

the level of control outlined in part (1) would be many orders of magnitude ahead of any number of knobs and keys, and all that is lacking to make it a reality is for Windows or Macintosh to add the simple facility for multiple, simultaneous cursors. (or, for Ableton to release Live for Linux).

rs

The Hulk · Post by **The Hulk** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:27 pm

ryansupak,

thanks for clearing that up. So I guess i should start petitioning apple to write in multi clicks into OS X! I think multi-clicks are far over due...it will be one step closer to taking us to interfaces as seen in movies like Minority Report...which I'm eagerly waiting for! The virtual 3d holographic display

The Incredible Hulk · Post by **The Incredible Hulk** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:20 pm

ryansupak,
just thought of something...Did you try the Tactex on OS X or 9? Because OS X is based on Unix so the multi clicking might work. Let me know if you know!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:58 pm

incredible hulk,

from what i've been told, the multiclicking won't work on osx.

i think the reason it works on linux is because linux's guis tend to be based on the Xwindow system, which does support multiple clicking.

but, i could be wrong...and if so i'd switch to Mac in a heartbeat.

rs

Alex Reynolds · Post by **Alex Reynolds** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 5:53 pm

While I don't have any source for a device driver for your specific piece of hardware, Apple's Developer site is a good place to start for specifics on what hardware can be supported, what attributes of hardware, etc.

Specifically, the HID Explorer portion of the I/O Kit classes will measure discrete values from zero to 255 from multiple "button" objects.

Check out:

-- http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/S ... plorer.htm

for more information.

-Alex

geargasm · Post by **geargasm** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:35 am

How about a modular midi controller?

FrankH · Post by **FrankH** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 10:08 am

Hello to all of you,

geargasm wrote:How about a modular midi controller?

That's what i did. Using 3 Doepfer Pocket Faders and 3 Doepfer Pocket Dials. That is a total of 6 units that work as one monster-controler.
In this way it can grow with you, i started with 1 FP and 1 PD and some time later i brought some additional units and ended with 3 units of both.
And if one unit gets a defect (has not happend yet but you never know) then you can easyly replace the defect unit or do a quick workaround, this is especialy good when you are in a live situation.
For me this is the most flexible and realible controler solution in the world.

In the future and when there is some money i'd like to replace the Pocket Faders with 100mm Motorised faders, but for now i haven't found any unit that does this for a good value of money.
I also plan to add a switchboard that sends midi note-on/off, i'm still building it.
And it would be nice to add a ribbon-controler and some infrared beams. There is always something left to want, and that is a healthy thing.

Frank Heijkamp

Make Love not War
(am not sure who sayd it)

yon · Post by **yon** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:30 pm

therefore, the limitation here is in the Macintosh and Windows operating systems, not in the control interface (MTC express) and presumably not in the Ableton software (since MIDI controllers can control many different parameters simultaneously).

The way this works with a device like the Tactex is that you make a custom driver to support it. For example, such a driver exists for Max/MSP (and presumably one exists, or is in development, for the related Surface One controller -- not sure if anyone mentioned, but it is based afaik on tactex's technology).

The tactex people provide documentation and an API suitable for developing support for it. There is also a max/msp object which implements a driver for OS9 (as far as I remember). One could easily make a little max patch that sends controller data to Live from Max/MSP for each of the pressure points, but of course this requires that one own Max..

cheers, yon

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:03 pm

hi all,

I think how to interact with Live comes down to the following fundamental question:
do you want to have physical feedback while interacting or not?

Having a multi-touch display might be interesting, but can you really reliably use sliders and rotary knobs and a cross fader on a touch panel? Has anyone here actually ever used a regular (single touch) touch monitor with Live?

When I see DJs using a crossfader at extreme speeds, I am curious to find out how they would do the same with a virtual crossfader from a user interface and a touch monitor.

Please post your reactions and ideas!

Best regards
Bert

PERCUSSA-instruments for sound exploration
http://www.percussa.com/

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:30 am

yon,

i've messed with the tactex api.

i saw how it could be used to emulate a mouse, and i saw how different areas of it could be assigned to different midi controllers.

however, that doesn't solve the problem of being able to emulate X amount of simultaneous mice if the os only supports 1 mouse.

i'm talking about a qualitative difference from using an array of pre-assigned midi controllers.

take the surface one for example: no matter how fancy the control array is, you are still sending midi messages -- and each midi signal will still have to be manually assigned to its desired function.

i'm talking about moving one order of magnitude closer to being able to directly control the instrument.

sorry if i'm misunderstanding something you're saying yon, i think this would be a tricky discussion even if we both had the same native language

:)

rs

ryansupak · Post by **ryansupak** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:37 am

bert:

that's one thing that excites me about things like an array of kaoss-pad like controllers, or a touchpad or ribbon controller.

with a CF you're limited to sequential, linear motion. with a touchpad you could skip around instantaneously on the fader/knob position.

you lose some tactile feedback but gain new dimensions of non-linear control.

rs

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:50 am

hi ryansupak,

I agree.

But.... I wrote up a little app yesterday showing just a DJ crossfader. I tried using the fader with a touch-screen, and the fader didn't track my finger reliably.... it was even worse when I started getting up to speed like turntablists do...

so maybe a touch screen will only work for simple touch-actions, but dragging a knob or fader seems to be hard and not reliable.

did anyone here ever use a touch screen with apps like max/msp or PD? or maybe some other pro-audio software?

Thanks.

bert

PERCUSSA-Instruments for Sound Exploration
http://www.percussa.com/

Ideas for your ideal Live controller

modular controler now available

to touch or not to touch?