a little test re: sound-quality

[friend_kami]

I'm personally not interested in tests like this - far too many far better audio guys than me have done it ad nauseum

but I would like to add this link where expensive wine has been proven to taste better: http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/01/ ... better.php


more food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YTlN6wjcvQ

Ok you are right..this tests are useless.. but not because there are no reasons for 24 bit recordings or good wine..

The last time I´ve spend 60.- for a bottle of wine it tasted absolute fantastic. And the smell like neroli,wow. And what it did to my brain, great. These old red wines are psychodelic !

I actually came to the bottle on a wine test.. after having a zip from various wines i had to have a bottle of that stuff.. it turned out to be the most expensive bottle in the test.. but was too late..
Actually i would have preferred to know the prices before i made the decision, but have´nt regretted the buy.

In short.. of cause you can fool fools .. that dont proves a thing.. in general expensive wine tastes and smells better. Of cause there is an expectation, but that expectation is there for a reason. And abusing that expectation just proves that you can trick people, not that bad wine is as good as good wine.

But thats the conclusion this bullshit wine or winer audio tests implement, that there is no sensual quality at all and the cheapest soundblaster or sour young wine will do as good as the expensive shit.

Just.. is there anybody that is really stiff enough to really go for that?

Ok, some people really dont have the sensory capacities.
I met a guy that really hasnt seen or tasted a difference between going to an expensive restaurant with perfect cooked dishes, and the too long cooked pasta with cold tomato sauce without any spices or even salt in the hotel.
For him it was booth just food and he couldnt understand that i was carrying him thru half town and spending 10 times as much.
He had all my pity.

it seems like are living under the delusion that an audio engine and food is the same thing and produces the same results.
i find that utterly fascinating.
i also find your comparison to be incredibly flawed.
it reminds me of the argument antipiracy lobbyists reaches out for:
you wouldn't steal a car, neither would you let someone steal YOUR car!

of course i would if i could just copy paste it. we all would.
but hey, i guess someone actually falls for that argument as a good point.

[newboss]

Do I get a prize for correctly guessing that the difference would be bit depth without even listening to the files? though I did get a clue form Magik_10's reply.

This actually comes as a great relief to me, because I had thought it was just my ageing ears that prevented me from hearing the difference between 12 bit and 16 bit audio - but it seems it's a lot more widespread.

12bit has a dynamic range of 72 db so on a ready mastered maximized file thats actually enough to represent the complete audio information.. at least in pop music.. therefor you dont hear a difference there.

When you would have multiple tracks recorded with analog headroom and get them down to 12 bit each. and mix that into a 12 bit file still with some headroom for the later mastering.. maybe 12 db.. and you dont present a take where everything is on max level.. you will have an audible difference. At least i would expect one

Better testmaterial is actually an unprocessed vocal recording with natural ambience.. ok..thats esoteric stuff for electronic music..
But i think there is a reason we dont work with 12 bit daws.

[newboss]

[
it seems like are living under the delusion that an audio engine and food is the same thing and produces the same results.
i find that utterly fascinating.
i also find your comparison to be incredibly flawed.
it reminds me of the argument antipiracy lobbyists reaches out for:
you wouldn't steal a car, neither would you let someone steal YOUR car!

of course i would if i could just copy paste it. we all would.
but hey, i guess someone actually falls for that argument as a good point.

?? what are you talking about? i wasnt the one that brought faked wine tests in the discussion.
And its totally valid to bring sensory sensetivity in the discussion when others bring winer audio tests that claim that a soundblaster wont give an audible difference to a highend converter. And this with a total midrang test material and an pre historic appogee as reference.,

This test just prove that you can fool fools easily.. Works for the hifi highend cult freaks.. and works for mr winer too.. Booth use trick people to get their product along.

However. what was the question of this thread? technical quality versus percieved quality?

By using files that can be adequatly represented with 12 bit we proved that 12 bit is enough to represent audio that can be adequatly represented with 12 bit..

right?

so we need to repeat the test with audio that cant be represented adequatly with 12 bit..and with that we will proove that we need some more bits in audio production?

I think thats not the point that needs to be proved.. but who knows in the age of audio myths.. we bust the 16/24 bit myth..

12 bit gear sounded better !!! and thats actually true ..i want my EII back :"(

[pepezabala]

At least I don't have to worry about more expensive gear anymore, now that I proved to be unable to spot the difference between 12bit-Floyd and 16bit-Floyd.

Or is it the other way round? If I think about it, I clearly need to get better equipment so I'll be able to hear the difference!

Damn you, Robert Henke.

[Forge.]

it seems like are living under the delusion that an audio engine and food is the same thing and produces the same results.
i find that utterly fascinating.
i also find your comparison to be incredibly flawed.
it reminds me of the argument antipiracy lobbyists reaches out for:
you wouldn't steal a car, neither would you let someone steal YOUR car!

of course i would if i could just copy paste it. we all would.
but hey, i guess someone actually falls for that argument as a good point.

did you watch the 2nd AES link?

In any case, for me this all just seems like a very ... I dunno "first world" problem?

For me a far bigger issue is trying to stay at all inspired or interested in even making music any more.

I watched a video the other day where Jack White got a couple of blocks of wood, a pickup and a string and did this mad slide guitar on one string on this instrument he just built... it was awesome

far more awesome than anything I've heard on 427zillion hertz super conductive speakers from the perfect 128bit DAW.......

my battered ears wouldn't be able to hear the difference in any of these stupid academic exercises, and I'm sorry but any of you out there who really think your ears can are probably deluded, because (like the 2nd video shows) ears are a pretty imperfect organ - ON EVERYONE.

A good sound engineer is not someone who hears perfectly. He is someone who hears WHAT'S IMPORTANT perfectly. And that skill comes with a lot of practice, but not golden ears.

[Komodovaran]

Thank you Forge. I was waiting for someone to say that.

[nigel1]

OK I'll bite....


Nice one Robert...here's the monitoring situation in my place:

IZ Ada Converter Nyquist 24ch version. Adam S3x-V's used as near/mid fields and JBL 4430's w/15" woofers bi-amped with 2 Brystons for "disco" monitoring LMAO!. Btw 4430's don't lie when it comes to bottom end...The room is eq'd with a White Instruments Eq all setup by the guys at Acoustilog NYC.

I suppose this is all subjective and i'll probably have egg on my face...but here are "my" thoughts.

Files:

A: This one is a nice "compromise" to the latter 2 files. The bottom end is a bit more smoother and pleasing(verified by comparing files on the 4430's) While the high end is a bit curtailed and the stereo spread seems a bit restrained, could be an illusion caused by high end roll-off, this is the file I like the most. To me if I was a betting man..it reminds me a bit of Nuendo 5.0 or Cubase 6. I didn't say it was...just saying it reminds me of the kind of mixes you get from that DAW and because I make dance music ...it is the file that is most appealing to "me". BTW I still have those DAW's and used them exclusively before additionally getting Live and PT HD.

b: This file seems to be a bit as the odd man out. There seems to be a slight bump in the midrange causing the vox to sound...for the lack of a better word...slightly more forward in the mix. It's slightly harsher..not by much...but noticeable. Stereo spread is slightly better than A. The low end is a bit less prominent than A also. In the end not bad...but not better than A.

c. This file is the one I had trouble with....It reminds me of Live. Why? well here it goes....I loved it as I love Live BUT the bottom end was not on par with A or B, which peeves me, yet the mid range to high end was outstanding. Slightly more phasey though. Great stereo spread...totally gives me the feeling that it's Live. It's like a girl with a great rack but she missed the boat on the education front. LMFAO.

Now like I said these are just my observations and I'm probably 100% wrong...and yet I was still intrigued enough to make an ass out of myself! Go figure...on that note I would love to know what the files are.

my ranking

1: A
2: C
3: B

btw to answer your question...better to me would be the quality of A's low mid to extreme low end combined with C's stereo spread and mid to high end range qualities.

Dennis Ferrer

[newboss]

I watched a video the other day where Jack White got a couple of blocks of wood, a pickup and a string and did this mad slide guitar on one string on this instrument he just built... it was awesome

great.. but you know that jack white is known for his freaky and very valuable custom guitar collection?
its not really like that he wouldnt value quality instruments or wouldnt spend money on them.

And i guess you dont want to compare our beloved live software with a pair of woodblocks in comparison to the overpriced emagic gibson?

Do you want to say that you can make music with everything regardless of technical data? i agree with that.

But that dont stops me from finding technical issues an interesting topic.. goes hand in hand with electronic music somehow.
See Jack white that can build own guitars.

[newboss]

b: This file seems to be a bit as the odd man out. There seems to be a slight bump in the midrange causing the vox to sound...for the lack of a better word...slightly more forward in the mix. It's slightly harsher..not by much...but noticeable. Stereo spread is slightly better than A. The low end is a bit less prominent than A also. In the end not bad...but not better than A.

Thats actually in big parts a good description how one would expect a 12 bit file to sound in comparison to a 16 bit file.

But that with the lowend reminds me to one interesting question..

Because a reduced bit width appears from my experiance mostly in the low end. For example when you choose the recording bit depth in ableton live. 24 versus 16 bit rec depth. 24 bit sounds more open in the low end.. and in 16 bit its more narow and tight.. good on some signals..but less expensive sounding.. Same applies to an yamaha dmc 1000 digital desk.. when you set the outputs to 22 bit the lowend sounds more open than when setting them to 16 bit..

Why?

I guess thats a psycho acoustic fx..
Or just the converters that fool me here?
Or do have 24/32 bit files really benefits in the sub bass precission or perception?
technical that should be bullshit.. but.. thats the way i hear it.

Any explanations?

[Forge.]

Do you want to say that you can make music with everything regardless of technical data? i agree with that.

But that dont stops me from finding technical issues an interesting topic.. goes hand in hand with electronic music somehow.
See Jack white that can build own guitars.

well yeah... I guess just as I get older I care less about that kind of bollocks. History favours the jack Whites over us nerdy fucks on the ableton forum whining about sample rates.

[Angstrom]

technical that should be bullshit.. but.. thats the way i hear it.

Any explanations?

yes, I have an explanation,
you are 3phase

you were banned once, so maybe chill on this stuff this time around?
eh?

[newboss]

Or do have 24/32 bit files really benefits in the sub bass precission or perception?
technical that should be bullshit.. but.. thats the way i hear it.

Any explanations?

yes, I have an explanation,
you are 3phase

you were banned once, maybe chill on this stuff this time around?
eh?

Wasnt 3phase banned after he posted files that showed degenerations of audio when you use abletons external fx plug versus logics external fx plug? Or was that because a guy called asström lured him into a trap and complained like a litle baby than? now that i call bitchy

[Angstrom]

Or do have 24/32 bit files really benefits in the sub bass precission or perception?
technical that should be bullshit.. but.. thats the way i hear it.
Any explanations?

yes, I have an explanation,
you are 3phase
you were banned once, maybe chill on this stuff this time around?
eh?

Wasnt 3phase banned after he posted files that showed degenerations of audio when you use abletons external fx plug versus logics external fx plug? Or was that because a guy called asström lured him into a trap and complained like a litle baby than? now that i call bitchy

Hmm, no - I think he was banned for something else. You have to ask the moderators.
interesting paranoid fantasies you have there. Lured into a trap? what?

I used to see 3phase posting huge repeating walls of crazy talk and I just used to ignore them mainly, it was quite easy to do. Except when he'd butt into other unrelated topics and derail them with talk of summing and how pro he is. I'd certainly call him out on that and say "oh please be quiet" in those threads.

I love the idea I can lay traps that lead to people be banned. I never knew I had that power!
I doubt it exists.

However, I do have the ability to detect you.
3phase

[newboss]

interesting paranoid fantasies you have there. Lured into a trap? what?

interesting paranoid fantasies you have there...

But insulting a guy like 3phase most certainly gets some harsh comments back.. and than running to mummy and playing the badly insulted guy.. you can call that a trap..

But that was nothing new really so i guess the real reason is that he finaly had some prove for the audio degenrations that can happen in ableton live.. To bad really because i personally would enjoy a transparent working external fx plug.

[Angstrom]

pffft, if you think that's what happened then that's even more hillarious