Why so many use Live instead of Traktor to do a ... DJ set ?

[The Carpet Cleaner]

Hey what's up ?

I still love Live to produce and I have fun creating the arrangement for my tracks while actually jamming and recording. Ableton live brings "Life" into the creation process. Ok, that's clear.

Now, to play outside, doing a mixtape, or something simple, that include playing songs from other artists... I tried Live, but really I didn't like it that much. You have to be really precise in your warping, you don't have a clear browser for tracks. If you want different cue point you have to duplicate all the tracks. All in all, you can't just arrive and use it with all your track. You have to get a proper set, with also all the mapping ready... you can't see two waveform at a time.

So basically, Live is not a pure DJ software. And there is no problem with that.

On the other hand, I find traktor (or serato maybe, I don't know this software), to actually combine all the pros of using software (don't need to burn CDs...), and also to do a DJ set I think it's better focused : you have cue point integrated to songs, a clean browser , lots of inbuilt effects, you even have dedicated midi controller to save you most of the midi mapping.

So now, can you can tell why do you think Ableton is still so popular amongst "digital DJs" ? I see a lots of artists that just have Live with two or 4 tracks in Live and try to recreated the classical 2/4 decks DJ paradigm. But I keep thinking traktor is much more adapted for this kind of job. So, why ?

Cheers

[noland]

I use ableton instead of traktor/serato/whatever because i want to dig into the machine

- build the whole template from scratch (well nearly scratch, Will Marshalls template gave me a lot of inspiration)
- have the audio exactly going the the way i routed it
- combine and stockpile fx till the CPU can't take it no more
- easily integrate my MBase11 analog kickdrum (with mark egloffs step sequencer i could also use a slim phatty, the minitaur or acidlabs miami)
- build my own loops in addition to the "professional" songs i use

So my DJ set is always on the edge of a live gig. It takes some preparations but it gives me way more flexibility then turntables.

And for me its also about attitude. If i want to use a computer on stage i want the full machine with all its complexity. If i want it ready to go, turn the power on and get the beat rolling i go with real vinyl instead of timecodes or jogwheels.

[noland]

and yes, traktor is much more adapted to djing. Its just a slight difference but it changes a lot if you have all tracks slaved to one master tempo (ableton) or a designated slave track bound to a designated master track (dj software)

[beats me]

I prefer Traktor for the reasons you mentioned.

I think the attraction for some DJs who prefer Live is getting crazy with effects or incorporating a lot of self produced isolated song elements and loops.

On either program anybody can be as lazy or busy as they want to be when performing. I prefer the kind of busy that Traktor allows compared to Live. I’m not into elaborate effects creation. Traktor’s effects are more than enough fun for my taste/ears. I love messing with different cue points and loop points and lengths on the fly which can’t be done with Live. Also I like using a well timed loop from a produced track as opposed to creating my own loops from scratch to drop in. And although I haven’t messed with it much, you can extract some seriously cool one shots and custom loops with the sample decks and resampling.

So I think it’s debatable which program allows for more creativity and customization of a set. It’s all in how you like processing things and playing with them.

[The Carpet Cleaner]

I use ableton instead of traktor/serato/whatever because i want to dig into the machine

- build the whole template from scratch (well nearly scratch, Will Marshalls template gave me a lot of inspiration)
- have the audio exactly going the the way i routed it
- combine and stockpile fx till the CPU can't take it no more
- easily integrate my MBase11 analog kickdrum (with mark egloffs step sequencer i could also use a slim phatty, the minitaur or acidlabs miami)
- build my own loops in addition to the "professional" songs i use

So my DJ set is always on the edge of a live gig. It takes some preparations but it gives me way more flexibility then turntables.

And for me its also about attitude. If i want to use a computer on stage i want the full machine with all its complexity. If i want it ready to go, turn the power on and get the beat rolling i go with real vinyl instead of timecodes or jogwheels.

Yes that set up looks crazy. Live is good for that.
But I was more referring to artists that use live with only one midi controller to launch a track, then launch one effect or two sometimes, and still do the mix on an externa mixer.

Skrillex do that for example, 2 channels with all his tracks, some effects, that's it.
Deadmau5 sometimes as well. He uses two x1 + an iPad with nerve for some extra drums sometimes, but that's it. (on some other set up he might use also other stuff...)
The will marshall thingy, I tried it as well, it's great. But I think it's not as streamlined as traktor pro2, while it basically try to emulate the same purpose.

Other people having opinions on this ?

[skatr2]

Flexibility for 1. I have the ability to utilize ableton as a traditional dj and have ability to incorporate my own personal work as needed. What I do is rather than have a "premade set", I do still have all my audio files in one master template. Since most of my music is house ish music...I don't worry about tempo issues some djs would have with ableton.

I still maintain some integrity by turning off the master quantize...allowing me to press a track I am mixing in apc button until I can drop it close to the beat that I want it on...then utilize a macro'd nudge to the individual track nudges so I can speed up and down a track just like I was riding a platter.

As some stated...its fun to create and collect effects and setups to have something interesting and unique in a performance. Lots of customizable setups and ability to merge live and non-live setups.

[Tarekith]

I use both Live or Traktor these days, just depends on what I need. I like Live for these reasons:

- I mix downtempo that covers a wide range of tempos that I go through in a set (70-125BPM). Mapping the tempo knob in Traktor is always a balance between resolution and your total range. The larger the range, the less resolution you have.

- I like the larger visual waveform displays that Live offers. A lot of the tracks I play don't follow the same sort of predictable song structure that you find in dance music, and this way I can more easily plan exactly how I want each mix to be.

- I LOVE being able to build my own custom effects racks in Live, and control exactly how they respond to my controller.

Traktor is nice when I just want something nice and simple, or feel like doing it old-school. The effects are useable, but nothing I look forward to using. It's generally a little quicker to grid tracks than warp them, but only fractionally. I really like the midi mapping possibilities that Traktor has compared to Live most of the time, though it can be a lot to wrap your head around initially. And that mapping window is stupid small, too much scrolling.

They both have their plus and minus points, I think a lot of it is just how you approach DJing these days.

[pencilrocket]

Skrillex do that for example, 2 channels with all his tracks, some effects, that's it.
Deadmau5 sometimes as well. He uses two x1 + an iPad with nerve for some extra drums sometimes, but that's it. (on some other set up he might use also other stuff...)
The will marshall thingy, I tried it as well, it's great. But I think it's not as streamlined as traktor pro2, while it basically try to emulate the same purpose.

Other people having opinions on this ?

They are not DJ... They are producer. The real DJ who are capable of the DJ technics uses everything incl. turntable scratch. To do so, you'll need analog turntable or digital DJ kit like Serato/Trakro and etc.

[noland]

But I was more referring to artists that use live with only one midi controller to launch a track, then launch one effect or two sometimes, and still do the mix on an externa mixer.

Deadmau5 sometimes as well. He uses two x1 + an iPad with nerve for some extra drums sometimes, but that's it.

Well, basically my setup is the same. One APC with a m4l StepSequencer Device for the Drummachine (MBase or Drumrack), instead of "two x1 and an ipad for the extra drumming"

I used to mix on an external mixer, but i went back to the APC linefaders for several reasons. I got so used to my private mixers filters (Allen&Heath Xone) and integrated them in my mixing style that i got in trouble when i played in a "Pioneer Club". Now i have the filters built in my ableton DJ Template and control them with the APC. They don't sound like A&H but its the same workflow in every club.

And unfortunately mixing external with 4 Tracks needs 4 Stereo cables to plug, which gets kind of nasty while hotswitching from one DJ to the other. It also limited my useage of Send/Return Tracks, which i use - unlike Will Marshall - quite a lot

[102455]

I think it would be cool if Ableton came out with a 'DJ Edition' of Live...

Keep the warping, the clips, the effects etc. but add pitch controls, a browser and the ability to scratch.

This is what DJs have been longing for, since Live first appeared.

I think DJs that use Live 'put up with' the limitations (from a DJ POV) because of the benefits.

The Bridge seemed like a good idea at the time, but it turned out to be a bit of a let down really. Only working with one DJ prog, needing both running at the same time, not being able to scratch clips and so on.

Do it properly - give Live a DJ front end.

[skatr2]

While I agree that some more typical dj functionallity would be cool, I also recognize that this would take away focus from what ableton really is...a central sequencer to give people a more live feel to their music projects. When live was first marketed..that's where they were going. Through things like rewire, people could take the tracks they made in numerous other programs...break em up and play em live. Theses days obviously theres more inherent production options...but the main premise is there.

It's only become a dj platform because many have manipulated it's open platform to support those functions. as you point out...you can't scratch...but any dj that is THAT "true to form"wouldn't touch ableton let alone a computer with a10ft pole Regardless of ability to scratch. To be honest I don't think theres a market for ableton in this direction and things like the bridge allow em to tap in the dj market without actually going head to head with other companies.

[JuanSOLO]

what skatr2 said...fer sure

And you can manipulate Live quite a bit, in many ways. Ms Pinky is one example, and if you could build a browser in M4L (not just a umenu), you would see some comparable stuff with Pinky along with things you cant do with other DJ software, all right inside Ableton. Currently there are a few M4L and Live limitations keeping me from going ALL OUT Ms.Pinky inside Live, AND Traktor is 'simply' a lot of fun and works GREAT with my APC40.

I watched some of Darren Cowley's new videos the other day, really cool/simple enhancements for someone using Live to DJ, such as a feature letting you nudge up and nudge down, on individual tracks.

I agree with some of what I read earlier. For me, DJing in Live becomes more of a play more of my own shit, with other snippits of music. it's way more of a Live remix, bordering on all original performance, on the fly improve style. But if I get a gig at a club or some art gallery and I just wanna rock some tunes I like, that other people know, I have WAY more fun using Traktor.

[The Carpet Cleaner]

Skrillex do that for example, 2 channels with all his tracks, some effects, that's it.
Deadmau5 sometimes as well. He uses two x1 + an iPad with nerve for some extra drums sometimes, but that's it. (on some other set up he might use also other stuff...)
The will marshall thingy, I tried it as well, it's great. But I think it's not as streamlined as traktor pro2, while it basically try to emulate the same purpose.

Other people having opinions on this ?

They are not DJ... They are producer. The real DJ who are capable of the DJ technics uses everything incl. turntable scratch. To do so, you'll need analog turntable or digital DJ kit like Serato/Trakro and etc.

I know, they are not a DJ, but they use live to recreate the paradigm of 2 or 4 decks and "DJ" without headphones. I think even for that, traktor seems more suited because you can do bare minimum with it with even less work.

Good to hear everyone's opinions !

[Greeg]

Well, I think that "Ableton Live DJing" is more about performance. Ok, you need to prepare some stuff at home (warping) but then, during the performance you don't have to worry too much about "tempo thing". Warping + qunatization is a huge help. With "normal" DJing - vinyls or traktor / serato you still need to be focused on tempo thing. You need to start track on time. Sure, it's easy for experienced DJ but still it requires some time, some dedication you could normally use for pure performance stuff. I think that's why soem artists use Ableton - they still can do some kind of a live show / live set / mix but at the same time, compared to classic DJing, they have much more time for the crowd.

ps. but honestly, serato/traktor way seems more natural to me. I love Ableton Live for producing but for DJing - i just don't like that warping stuff. With Live 7 it was all about setting 2 markers (so it took around 10-20 seconds) and 99 % of electronic 4x4 tracks were warped properly. With Live 8 it's too much hassle.

[noland]

Well if you don't have really short loops you still have to start clips on time with ableton. No matter if its Vinyl, Traktor or Ableton you perform with - DJing is always about timing

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