Vocoder and MIDI track volume help

[Centennialite]

Hello! I'm still fairly new to Ableton Live. I've used Cakewalk Home Studio before, so not quite a complete novice, but I'm beginning to see that I'm in way over my head as far as comparative knowledge. After searching Ableton Support and the forums here, I think I need to just ask my question here. I do apologize if I overlooked it somewhere else.

Okay, starting with my system and stuff:
Dell Inspiron 620 Intel i5, 8G RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Creative X-Fi sound card, Ableton Live 8.2.6, Oxygen61 MIDI Controller, ART TubeMP Project Series mic preamp. Don't ask me what kind of mic I'm using because it's a hundred years old and I don't remember! It is a dynamic mic though


I'm trying to use Ableton's Vocoder for "talking synth" effect. I have track one as audio, with the mic going in, and the Vocoder loaded. Audio From: external; Audio To: master. Track 2 is MIDI and has Synth Brass-Brass Brassinski loaded. Volume on this track is turned all the way up at the moment. The Vocoder: Carrier: external; audio from: 2-Brass Brassinski, pre-fx. (I have "enhance" highlighted for carrier, although I don't notice if it makes a difference.. it's okay, you can laugh at me!). Track 2 is muted. Tracks 1 and 2 have record enabled.

My problem: Although signal level from my microphone is great, when I speak into the mic while pressing a key on the MIDI controller, although I can hear the synth, the microphone signal is overpowering it such that I can't really hear what it is I'm vocoding. So I turned track 2 up all the way, and for some reason, it's just not "coming through" strongly like the mic signal. Where the problem really starts is that while I'm doing all this, I have to turn the master volume down A LOT or end up with an echoing feedback loop from hell! So I want to hear less of my voice and more of the synth that is being shaped by my voice. I have of course tried all the adjusters inside Vocoder itself to see if anything would make a difference for boosting the audio from track 2, but nothing helps.

Now, once I actually record what I'm doing to another audio track (track 3), it ends up sounding okay there and I pretty much get the effect I want -- vocoded synth with no organic voice at all in it. But I want to be able to *hear* that while I'm recording it! Also, when I watch any tutorials about the Vocoder, invariably the guy will click *something* and all you hear is the vocoded thing, and not his voice at all. They never explain how!

The only thing I think I haven't tried yet is changing the audio-to on track 1 to something besides master. Is this the obvious thing I may have overlooked? I've played with sends and returns and that doesn't work, either. In order to hear the vocoded track while I'm recording, I have to turn the master volume up so high that the microphone signal sends it into insanity and has me frantically throwing my headphones down. (And that's something no one should see- a woman in her late 40s freaking out over feedback! LOL)

If anyone has any suggestions at all, please help.. I've looked everywhere! Thanks.

[Samaritan Sound]

Does your creative XiFi have input monitoring turned on? Also make sure your dry/wet control in the vocoder is turned to wet.

[Centennialite]

Does your creative XiFi have input monitoring turned on? Also make sure your dry/wet control in the vocoder is turned to wet.

Yes, it does - Ableton also has its own volume when it's open. I just checked - set to maximum "wet" in Vocoder.

[Centennialite]

Also, the microphone level is nice and high. If I unmute track 2, I can hear it fine also. It's only when I have that track muted and running to the Vocoder while I'm holding down a synth key and speaking into the mic that it is very low volume. I'm pretty sure I'm routing everything correctly because I get the desired result when I record it to a third track, with the possible exception of not knowing where I should "listen to" track 1 to get it to stop feeding back when the master fader is turned up.

[Samaritan Sound]

If your dry vocal is too loud, then turn off input monitoring. Between that and using full wet, you shouldn't hear any dry vocal at all. Crank up the depth and play with the dormant knob.

[Centennialite]

Thanks! Is there a way to do this within Ableton itself though? (Not the sound card mic settings; that seems a little tedious)?

[Samaritan Sound]

No, your XiFi has its own mixer to adjust what's coming in through its inputs. It may just be in the SoundVol icon in your system tray, or there may be a mixer app.

[Centennialite]

Well, I've tried everything this morning. I was hoping there'd be something in Ableton... figuring maybe if I set the mic track's Audio-To to something besides Master, there might be a difference, but then the synth would go away. So I then went into my X-Fi settings and tried whatever I could in there. My frustration grows because something is telling me there must be an easier way than this. I consulted the Ableton Live 8 book to see if something in there would give me a clue. Other than something about instruments which don't need monitoring because they're monitored "through the air", I found nothing that explained it. It seems like there must be a way to record something - anything - into Ableton, where Ableton itself is picking it up and registering it on the meters but the user can't hear it. Or am I just out to lunch here?

Does anyone who uses Vocoder have their sound card open, ready to mute playback of the mic or whatever, even the guys in the tutorials about it? (They hit something, and the dry signal is gone, and then it's back in an instant when they want it, but you never see what they did. They're using their sound card settings, really? I'm thinking of Ableton Workshop in particular (on YouTube).

Anyway, thanks for trying, I appreciate it. I might just be stuck here.

[Centennialite]

Okay, a follow-up here -- semi-good news, anyway. Going back over Samaritan Sound's advice, I went back into the X-Fi settings and disabled "What U Hear" (something I hadn't even thought of until my son remarked what a nightmare that one can be). I then re-watched Houston Singletary's (sp) Vocoder tutorials (parts 1 and 2) and corrected my monitor setting on track 1 (in, not auto). The positive effect was that now the signals from track 1 (mic and Vocoder) and track 2 (brass) were not being monitored on the Master fader any longer. This allows me to go louder with both track 1 and track 2 before the feedback starts (which unfortunately it still does if I'm not careful). For good measure I went into the Brass Brasinski settings and just made sure everything was okay there. So the upshot is that now I can hear *more* of the synth carrier coming into the Vocoder than I could before.

But two problems still remain:

1) I still can't hear the vocoded signal without the dry signal (my voice)
2) The MIDI track coming in still seems weak

If there's anything I've overlooked, I really would like suggestions from anyone. I have done the obvious things, like making sure MIDI playback level is high enough (I have it at 96 percent in my X-Fi settings). So I should be able to hear it okay. There might be something else I need to do, but I don't know what.

Thanks.

[Samaritan Sound]

The MIDI playback on your XiFi pertains to the card's internal wavetable, not sounds generated by your software. What happens if you turn up the volume with all your tracks muted? If you still get feedback, it's something outside of Ableton. Can you post your project, or at least just the tracks giving you the problem?

[Centennialite]

The MIDI playback on your XiFi pertains to the card's internal wavetable, not sounds generated by your software.

Thank you, I didn't know, but wanted to cover everything.

What happens if you turn up the volume with all your tracks muted?

I haven't tried that, but I'm sure nothing would happen, except I wouldn't hear anything.

If you still get feedback, it's something outside of Ableton. Can you post your project, or at least just the tracks giving you the problem?

Sure, just need to figure out how to do that... back later. Thanks.

[Centennialite]

Okay, no luck there... might try screen capture so you can see it, at least.

[Centennialite]

Okay, this is screen shot of the last time I had the project open: http://fireandair.org/wp-content/upload ... age001.png

You can see where my levels are set, and everything else. This is exactly how I left it yesterday morning and haven't opened it since, in case someone here might spot anything unusual or obvious that could be causing this. I didn't actually record anything yet, because the problem is happening with or without recording (track 3 is there because I was planning to use that as the destination.. at some point).

The view is hidden in this shot, but track 1 I have Audio From: Ext In, 1 channel, Monitor: In, Audio To: Master, sends A and B both down and unselected. That should be everything.

I plug the mic into track 1 and you can see where the volume is set for that; I get a nice, strong signal. So strong, in fact, that no matter what I do in Vocoder I can hear my voice through the mic -- wet, dry, doesn't matter! The synth from track 2 can be heard but in no way competes with the dry vocal signal.

(Oh, yeah - hadn't even got far enough to mess with any settings (like EQ) in Vocoder yet.)

Thanks...

[Centennialite]

No responses yet? Hmm...

I did read through all of this thread again, making sure I haven't forgotten anything. There is one thing I actually didn't do, because I do not find a setting for it: turning off input monitoring. I have opened all the properties in my sound card, both play and record, and find nothing called "input monitoring". Could it be called something else? We have another computer in the house that *does* have this in that sound card's settings, under the "advanced" tab. This one doesn't - under "advanced", it has only "allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" (with a box, checked) and "give exclusive mode applications priority" (also with a checked box).

I really don't know what else to do. I contacted Ableton Support by e-mail a couple of days ago, but I was hoping I could find help here. Anyone? Anything else I can try? Thanks.

[Samaritan Sound]

Looking at your screencap, you still have quite a bit of room to go on the Depth knob. Beyond that, it may be a bad match between carrier and modulator. Try a huge dawtoothy synth carrier just to see if you can get it working. Some carriers work better than others.