Sound quality: analog vs sample drums

[ze2be]

Please no Kate Perry flames!

So Ive had a jomox 808/909 clone dusting in the closet for years. Its no secret, im a big in-the-box digital fan.

Recently ive begun catching up on lofi dub techno. Ive been diging through my old vinyl from the 90ties, did a gig and am inspired. My opinion up to the rellease of UHEs Diva (which I got recently) is that I cant hear much difference on synths. And its way more flexible ITB. But with minimal techno theres a lot of room for details.

Whats the pros and cons of using real analog drum machines, in this contex. Is it really worth it, can you hear a difference?

[betterbox]

sure you can hear a difference..or why do you think a 808 is still so damn expensive?

THe little mfb 522 is however a possibilty to get a friendly priced heavy analog kick experiance.

it sounds way bigger than it looks

[ze2be]

What does it add that is so good. Im strugling to hear a difference. What can I do to really hear it?
Is it because of the latency and the various hardware noise?

Analog synths I can hear a diference, but not so much on these drums..

I already got this one: Jomox Airbase 99

Its got a seperate outputs for each drum.
Analog parts:
909: kick and toms.
808: kick, toms.
The rest is 8 bit samples!

[jackrabbit]

Its a good idea to sample your analog drum machines anyway as analog oscillators are not phase locked. With music that more high paced you will notice the drum sounds inconsistent without a fixed start phase.

Also most good sample companies record analog machines through better kit that you would have at home. Gig wise hardware probably more hands on and fun but I would prefer top quality samples in the studio.

At the end of the day its what gives you the results you are after.

[betterbox]

same same but different

as you say..its just drums

[trevox]

Its a good idea to sample your analog drum machines anyway as analog oscillators are not phase locked. With music that more high paced you will notice the drum sounds inconsistent without a fixed start phase.

Also most good sample companies record analog machines through better kit that you would have at home. Gig wise hardware probably more hands on and fun but I would prefer top quality samples in the studio.

At the end of the day its what gives you the results you are after.

The main advantage of analog over sampled analog is the fact that the sound is generated each time a drum is hit and it is different. Sampling will take the effect of hearing a slightly different version of the hit away each time it is played. Adding to this, once sampled you cannot modify parameters on the fly. Or maybe you do want each hit to sound exactly the same, I don't know. All I do know is that when sampling real instruments, I go to great lengths to layer multiple version of the same note on each key so it is not the same each time a key is hit. To make it sound more natural. After all, when a drummer is playing, will every snare he hits sounds exactly the same each time?

To the OP - an analog drum machine is an analog synth. It uses analog oscillators and filters, just like your typical analog synth. The main difference is that they will usually have very specific envelopes, filters, noise generators etc designed to make drum sounds. You could easily make these sounds on an analog synth too if it had the flexibility. Basically the difference between digital synths and analog synths is the same as the difference between digital drum machines and analog ones. But I would suggest doing a test where you use your jomox over an entire track and now do the same with digital/sampled drums. See which sounds more natural. If you cannot hear the difference, then it doesn't really matter! But for me, analog kicks and particularly snares and hats have never been fully matched using digital synthesis.

I would second the MFB-522 - don't own one myself, but my mate has one and it sounds amazing for it's size and price.

[Komodovaran]

Would an analog drum sample sound the same as a real-time rendered analog drum if the oscillators are retriggered? If so, I see no quality difference, since at this point, going through your computer, they're both digital.

For a continuously oscillating analog synth, however, I could see how it would differ to samples or a digital synth.

[ze2be]

What I mean is, if the differences are only subtle,
isnt it just as good to add subtle differences to each hit of a sample?

Carefully, and almost inaudible auto-modulation: random filter, random velocity,
random groove and timing, random envelope, and so forth.
+One could send the drum sound through some external hardware
to get it even more lofi/organic sounding.

Because with soft synths I can make any kind of kick or other drum sound I can imagine.
While my real analog drum machine can only do 808 and 909 kicks,
which frankly ive been sick of for the last 10 years.

What if:
1. Create a kick with software
2. Resample it 128 times (or less) through real hardware distortion and real tape, 24bit 88.2khz or higher
3. Use a Sampler and layer all the samples on one note. Set lfo to randomise samples on each hit


I like to make music on my laptop in all kinds of places. On the winter cabin, at my parrents house,
at my girlfriends, at vecation, at the hotel room when giging, and so fourt.
Not to forget colabs: sending projects back and fourth to friends.
Using hardware sound modules feels like carrying huge dongles in these situations.

[ze2be]

I would suggest doing a test where you use your jomox over an entire track and now do the same with digital/sampled drums. See which sounds more natural. If you cannot hear the difference, then it doesn't really matter! But for me, analog kicks and particularly snares and hats have never been fully matched using digital synthesis.

The snares and cymbals in the jomox is just 8bit samples,
running through analog filters and analog envelopes. Just like the 808 and 909.

For instance, I think layered cymbal samples from real drummers sounds more dynamic then these.
Its perhaps the lofi part that atrackts me the most with the Jomox...

[trevox]

Would an analog drum sample sound the same as a real-time rendered analog drum if the oscillators are retriggered? If so, I see no quality difference, since at this point, going through your computer, they're both digital.

For a continuously oscillating analog synth, however, I could see how it would differ to samples or a digital synth.

The principle is the same. When you turn an analog synth on, the oscillator is actually playing constantly - same as an analog drum machine. You don't really "trigger" an oscillator - when you trigger a key/drum, the envelope will open allowing sound out. Whether or not the oscillator itself is synced or not depends on the machine. But even if it is, the fact that the oscillator's waveform is not digital, each hit will be different regardless of this. Does each hit sound radically different? No, but I think the subtle variance is enough to make a more natural sounding drum track.

[trevox]

What I mean is, if the differences are only subtle,
isnt it just as good to add subtle differences to each hit of a sample?

Carefully, and almost inaudible auto-modulation: random filter, random velocity,
random groove and timing, random envelope, and so forth.
+One could send the drum sound through some external hardware
to get it even more lofi/organic sounding.

Because with soft synths I can make any kind of kick or other drum sound I can imagine.
While my real analog drum machine can only do 808 and 909 kicks,
which frankly ive been sick of for the last 10 years.

What if:
1. Create a kick with software
2. Resample it 128 times (or less) through real hardware distortion and real tape, 24bit 88.2khz or higher
3. Use a Sampler and layer all the samples on one note. Set lfo to randomise samples on each hit


I like to make music on my laptop in all kinds of places. On the winter cabin, at my parrents house,
at my girlfriends, at vecation, at the hotel room when giging, and so fourt.
Not to forget colabs: sending projects back and fourth to friends.
Using hardware sound modules feels like carrying huge dongles in these situations.

I think that kinda defeats the purpose a little bit if you actually own the machine, but what you have explained above is pretty much what I would do if I didn't own the drum machine and really wanted the sounds from it. But then again, let's say you wanted to tweak the sound a bit - you'd have to record 128 samples agin etc and make another sample bank.

I totally get your point on getting sick of 808's and 909's though. I usually make my drums on a nord modular and add slight modulations to give the impression of variance between hits without being too obvious. Doesn't sound wholly analog, but it does sound interesting! I am just about to get a DSI tetra and am really looking forward to making drum sounds on it as much as anything else as I would say there is a lot of scope for making more interesting analog drums.

[JuanSOLO]

I used to think along the lines ze2be is suggesting. And partly I still agree, YES, you can make sample packs, use Ableton's Randomizer FX plus velocity layering etc, and get the best of sampling. It's portable, convenient an gets organic results in a digital environment.

However a few years back I saw my friend Lars' (a.k.a LZX industries/video synthesizer guy) band at the time playing before my friend Wanz (a.k.a Blixaboy) at a dive club in Dallas. They brought out a fairly decent PA. Wanz is a great producer and was predominantly using his laptop. Lars was using his modular synth build. For me it was the first time I truly heard the difference and the difference was pretty intense. Lars was just using his DIY 808, and it was SO rich SO organic, that Wanz's set seemed really flat and lacking that full sound in contrast to it.

If you can't hear the difference, OR convenience/portability is more important, then by all means go on with sample packs you create to get some organics. Yet on another note, the DSI Tempest looks just as portable as a laptop, you can use Ableton to control it, and use the external instrument to bring it's sounds into Ableton giving you the flexibility of Live's routings and FX, AND this most definitely eases the strain of your CPU when your free from huge sample packs as such. Plus, in my opinion, sounds way more rich, even if your processing analog gear through 1's and 0's, it still beats the stagnancy of samples.

I am moving more and more to outboard gear for these reasons. One of my favorite results is seeing Live's CPU idle at 10-20% instead of 30-70%. This stabilizes my Live sets, and gives me better performance when processing this stuff with all my fun routings and FX in Ableton.

These days there are a lot of portable, great sounding, not always expensive choices of analogue gear.

[ze2be]

I used to think along the lines ze2be is suggesting. And partly I still agree, YES, you can make sample packs, use Ableton's Randomizer FX plus velocity layering etc, and get the best of sampling. It's portable, convenient an gets organic results in a digital environment.

However a few years back I saw my friend Lars' (a.k.a LZX industries/video synthesizer guy) band at the time playing before my friend Wanz (a.k.a Blixaboy) at a dive club in Dallas. They brought out a fairly decent PA. Wanz is a great producer and was predominantly using his laptop. Lars was using his modular synth build. For me it was the first time I truly heard the difference and the difference was pretty intense. Lars was just using his DIY 808, and it was SO rich SO organic, that Wanz's set seemed really flat and lacking that full sound in contrast to it.

If you can't hear the difference, OR convenience/portability is more important, then by all means go on with sample packs you create to get some organics. Yet on another note, the DSI Tempest looks just as portable as a laptop, you can use Ableton to control it, and use the external instrument to bring it's sounds into Ableton giving you the flexibility of Live's routings and FX, AND this most definitely eases the strain of your CPU when your free from huge sample packs as such. Plus, in my opinion, sounds way more rich, even if your processing analog gear through 1's and 0's, it still beats the stagnancy of samples.

I hear what you are saying. But it also have something to do with production experience and knowledge. I once played at an outdoor in the nature venue (optimal for sound) with a realy good soundsystem. The guy before me was performing with a modular analog system. Really cool setup! However, even though the tools was nice, his production sounded really flat. When I played from my laptop using only software (Live) the sound was pumping air dynamicaly and detailed like no other acts before me. Some of them were a bit newbies. But I know my sound stands out on the best sound systems at big festivals, world wide. Because experienced people come up to me and tell me so. And sometimes in the night when no one can see me, I step out a minute or two while my patner is playing, just to check the sound. But I wouldnt have goten there if I didnt always try to get better. Hence now this thread.

That music was maximalistic, full of frequencies. For this project, im going back to minimal, oldschool inspired techno. Here, its actually room for micro details. And the techno geek djs would absolutely love if I did use analog gear. And, you know theyve herd "Ableton sound is not so good", yadayada... But im older and more experienced then most of them. So I feel I should rather tell them to shut up and listen!

[JuanSOLO]

I imagine if you can do wonders with software, adding some hardware will only make you stronger.