Live 5: A competent DAW?

[AdamJay]

whoah. they must have up'd the price between the time you clicked the link and i posted it.

my piano guy just got Live 4 from GC for $299 by showing them that site.
dag.

[hoffman2k]

Word spreads about this good shit.
Makes the street prices go up

[anarchicluv]

whoah. they must have up'd the price between the time you clicked the link and i posted it.

my piano guy just got Live 4 from GC for $299 by showing them that site.
dag.

It's all good though, I just found another site that is offering it up for $329..close enough! And I'm still searching to see if I can get it lower before I run to pick it up.

[biadjo]

It looks like you have made up your mind, but I just wanted to add some feedback from my experience with Live and Logic. Although I have been using Live for few years now (although, only the time with Live 4 is really pertinent in this comparison), I have just started messing with Logic express (first) and Logic Pro just recently. From this brief experience I can tell you:

a)Rewiring in Logic is complicated and not straightforward at all. It took me 1 full day to rewire Live and Reason into Logic. Even so, I can’t record the audio coming from Live yet. As soon as you configure an audio track as a rewire bus/channel, you lose the ability to record audio. So you have to bounce the track, save the file and import it manually (so much for rewiring!).
b)Logic seems to be a bit better when it comes to Midi notes handling and quantization. However, the ability to create Midi clips makes Live a superior tool imo. You can literally play with the clips parameters (warp, start/endpoints) and launch them at a click of a mouse or from an external controller. Lots more fun and creative.
c) It might be just an impression, but as soon as I route audio through Logic, it sounds a lot better. The same loop played in Live by itself and Live rewired to Logic sounds a lot better in the second case.
d)Overall, the sound of Logic synths is pretty high. I do not have much experience with the Operator. I downloaded the demo but it was using too much CPU resources and I stopped playing with it. I have now a better computer (dual G5) and it might be a different story. However, it seems like my machine is performing better in Logic than in Live. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that Live does not support dual CPUs, from what I understand.
e)In Logic, you can load up channel strips of complex instruments/fx configuration very fast and effectively. This saves a lot of time. However, I think you will be able to do something similar with Live 5 with clip save/recall.

All in all, I’d rather much work in Live than Logic. I love composing in the session view. It gives you a chance to try out different things so much faster than any other program I know. You can jam in the session view and then edit/refine in the arrange window (it would be nice if you could split the two and have one view on one monitor and the other view on another monitor: can Live 5 do that?).
I only bought Logic b/c 1) had some extra cash 2) wanted to test by myself that I was not missing on anything by using Live alone (pricey, but for music I tend to do stuff like this…). For sure I would like to keep using both of them (so I won’t feel so bad having wasted all that cash). But if I had to give up one, that would be Logic for sure.

I just wish there was a way to use Logic as a rewire slave and not master all the time. This way I could record Logic’s audio in to Live and the get the best out of the 2 programs.

[Machinesworking]

For sure I would like to keep using both of them (so I won’t feel so bad having wasted all that cash). But if I had to give up one, that would be Logic for sure.

I just wish there was a way to use Logic as a rewire slave and not master all the time. This way I could record Logic’s audio in to Live and the get the best out of the 2 programs.

What I've started to do is use Logic on the dual gig G4, ( since lIve makes no real use of the second CPU ), and Live 4 on the powerbook. There are a TON of ways to get audio to and from the two, the best besides two soundcards is probably Wormhole 2. Network the two computers together and use the built in MIDI Network in Tiger to play Logic synths in Live 4. Use something Like Wormhole, Jack Tools, or Soundflower to get audio to Live from Logic. Jack Tools is free, Wormhole 2 is about $49, but very worth it if you are using networked computers.

If you are just trying to get audio from Logic into Live do this. Install Jack Tools, open Live FIRST then Logic, now they are not Rewired! Use jack tools to get audio to Live from Logic. There are free MIDI utilities to send beat clock etc. between applications in OSX if you want the LFOs to match up to tempo etc.

If you delve into Rewire in Logic a little deeper you'll realize how much most people miss about it, but like I said, I'm not a big fan of Rewire to begin with.....
I've used Logic for over four years now, and Live for a little over a year. They both have their ups and downs. I'm hating Live's piss poor time signature functionality right about now.... writing something that goes from 5/4 to 4/4 a lot.....

I do however feel almost overwhelmed when I'm sitting there with Logic open on one computer, networked into Live on the powerbook, it's pretty mind blowing.

[Captain Screwbarb]

I just checked ebay, and unopened copies of Live are selling very cheap...300 bucks and less. Anybody who doesn't have 4 yet ought to take this oppurtunity.

[Livewire]

I just checked ebay, and unopened copies of Live are selling very cheap...300 bucks and less. Anybody who doesn't have 4 yet ought to take this oppurtunity.

I dont get it. Why would people do this? Do they make a profit?

[biadjo]

Hi Machinesworking,

thanks for the email and the recommendations. I was aware of the existence of the programs you mentioned (Jacktools, Soundflower, and Wormhole) but I never had the need to use them before...I just downloaded Soundflower and I got it working on my computer. So now I can record directly into Live what I am sequencing in Logic.
That's a definetely a good start and a time saver, although, when you think of it, it's not much more than bouncing audio off of Logic and importing it into Live.

I guess what I wished for in my previous post is an implementation of rewire between Live and Logic similar to what one can do between Live and Reason.
With the latter, you can record audio from Reason into Live, control any of the Reason parameters and instruments directly from the Live arrange window, and everything is happening in perfect sync thanks to Rewire.

You mentioned using the Tiger Midi network to control the Logic synths in Live. Could you be a bit more specific about that? How would I go about implementing it? Also, does this limit me to send Midi notes, or would I be able to control the synth parameters remotely as well in Live?
I also have a Powerbook but so far I never thought of networking it with my main desktop computer. You are opening up some interesting perspectives for me...

Anxious to find out more from you... thanks for your expert advice.

[Machinesworking]

I wouldn't call it expert, more like always searching for a way to better use the hardware and software I have. m

OK Here's another tool, Midiclock

Now I'm not really sure that you need this anymore in Tiger? I'll test myself, but if you have Tiger OS 10.4 , then in the Audio MIDI setup, there is an icon in the MIDI setup called Network. I use this to transmit MIDI between the powerbook and the tower via ethernet, now my guess is you can use it to transmit MID inter application wise on the same computer? I'm going to try this, but if it works then it will send MIDI clock, and allow for you to send automation data as well. I've been using it to do my hardcore MIDI editing in Logic, even though the synth I'm using is connected to the powerbook.
I haven't tried Soundflower, I went with Jack Tools simpluy because a friend just gave me a 600mhz PIII,and I'm going to instal Linux on it, Jack was Linux first....

I'll get back to you on the MIDI Network thing.....

[olafmol]

simple:

the big DAW's like cubase, nuendo, logic, samplitude are basically set up as multitrack-tape recorders, and offer you a huge pallette of editing and processing tools.... something like an over-the-top arrangement-view in live....

Ableton Live though is much more set up as an instrument in itself..... you can do lineair multitracking, but thats just a little part of it, you can also use the sequencer as an instrument, on the fly, in realtime...

for me the most obvious plus-point that live has: you can hear your arrangement, WHILE you are arranging ... in the lineair DAW's you always have to switch between editing/arranging and listening..

Olaf

[mthomashow]

A few more thoughts on this....I first entered the computer software instrument/DAW world two years ago. As a newcomer, I started with LIVE 3 as it was so intuitive to use and at first I was audio oriented. Then I piucked up Logic 6 because I was able to get it at a good price with an educator's discount. Over the last year and a half I've been using Live 4 and Logic Pro, depending on mood, objective, etc. They are both great programs that allow you to make incredible music. Despite hundreds of hours of use I have yet to scratch the surface of knowledge for either of them.

Here's my take:

I still find Live easier to use, more immediately flexible, and a better looping tool. It inspires inventiveness. It has a freshness and spirit about it that really appeals.
It is definitely more CPU intensive than Logic, but there are lots of ways to get around that....especially turning your synth software clips into audio tracks. Despite hundreds of hours of using Logic, I still feel like like Live is more familiar to me.

I love using Logic as a synth rack. If I just want to explore my soft synths, I go to Logic, set up a template with various soft synths aligned accordingly and play away. Scuplture is sublime as are many of the other synths and plug-ins. Honestly, Logic is great value and it's not that hard to learn. There are aspects of Logic that are incredibly easy and intuitive, other processes that are cumbersome.

That's the way it is with all of these programs. They all have relative strengths and weaknesses. And most of them are fantastic tools which allow you to do most anything you want.

I'm glad I have them both....and at some point it might make sense for any Mac owner to have both. They offer different ways of thinking about your music and inspire you to do different things.

Bottom line.....I think Live is better for newbies.....but both programs are filled with great tools and musical possibilities.

[unklmic]

Things that I find I DO need in addition to Live 5, however are a pro-quality sample editor for details destructive sample editing and mastering (Adobe Audition here), a notation program (Sibelius, but for dance music you may not need notation?)... and more instruments.

What is notation? What does a notation program do?

[headquest]

Notation is written music.

A notation program such as Sibelius gives you the tools you need to "engrave" professional-quality music scores to be used by performing musicians.

Also, however, you can save a Sibelius score as a MIDI file and import it into Ableton Live/etc. When I want to produce a long linear piece with parts I find it easiest to do this in Sibelius (as I am a classical musician) and then import the MIDI into Ableton in order to match up sounds and do a mix.

[unklmic]

Notation is written music.

A notation program such as Sibelius gives you the tools you need to "engrave" professional-quality music scores to be used by performing musicians.

Also, however, you can save a Sibelius score as a MIDI file and import it into Ableton Live/etc. When I want to produce a long linear piece with parts I find it easiest to do this in Sibelius (as I am a classical musician) and then import the MIDI into Ableton in order to match up sounds and do a mix.

Thanks headquest. Would Sibelius be of any use if you cannot read sheet music?

[headquest]

Thanks headquest. Would Sibelius be of any use if you cannot read sheet music?

No, not really. Although you can play in music using a MIDI keybaord, use the bundled Kontakt player, and burn to CD, it is basically software that is squarely aimed at reading/writing music. And it's super expensive considering that is all it does (about £500 in the UK).